21 Sep 2009: Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated

From: Jon Ribbens <j.ribbens@ukvoting.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:25:38 +0100
Subject: RESULT : Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated PASSES 128:24
Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.rec.cycling



Summary: Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated

Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated PASSES 128:24

YES beat NO by a majority of 104 votes. For group passage, there must be 
12 more YES votes than NO votes. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voting closed at 23:59:59 BST, 7th August 2009.

Proponent : Ian Jackson
            <ijackson (at) chiark (dot) greenend (dot) org (dot) uk
Votetaker : Pedt Scragg <xuld-query (at) pedt.demon.co.uk>
            Succeeded by Jon Ribbens <j.ribbens (at) ukvoting.org.uk>
	    for the vote count.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Results:

The results follow below in the following order:

1) Summary of Mail Received During the Voting Period
2) Results
3) Individual Vote Details
4) Votetakers Comments
5) Voting and Appeal Guidelines
6) Rationale
7) Newsgroups Line
8) Proposed Charter

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


   194 emails were received at the ballot request address:

     193 : valid ballot requests
       1 : test by the votetaker

   176 emails were received at the vote submission address:

     170 : valid votes (including re-votes)
       1 : someone requesting a ballot paper back to the autoresponder
       1 : email regarding the vote
       1 : blank email
       1 : email received out of time
       2 : tests by the votetaker

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated

       YES : 128 votes
        NO :  24 votes
   ABSTAIN :   4 votes
     Total : 156 votes

YES beat NO by a majority of 104 votes. For group passage, there must be 
12 more YES votes than NO votes. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


Voted YES:

  pschleck * net,novia,oasis                      Paul W. Schleck       Y
  cam * uk,ac,ed,holyrood                         Chris Malcolm         Y
  pete.whelan * com,talk21                        Pete Whelan           Y
  steve * uk,co,stevegouldstone                   steveg                Y
  goo18731 * uk,co,yahoo                          PhilO                 Y
  damerell+urcm * uk,org,greenend,chiark          David Damerell        Y
  spiralpathways * com,googlemail                 Colin Langdon         Y
  news003 * uk,me,woodall                         Tim Woodall           Y
  a24061a * com,ducksburg                         Adam Funk             Y
  urcmvote * uk,co,f9,chthonic                    Mike Trinder          Y
  Emcmiddleton * com,aol                          Emily Middleton       Y
  palmersperry * com,yahoo                        Alistair Gunn         Y
  cgv * de,aprice                                 Andrew Price          Y
  mrc7 * uk,ac,cam                                Mike Clark            Y
  andrew_d_may * com,hotmail                      Andrew May            Y
  news06 * com,crazyscot                          Ross Younger          Y
  wirral_cyclist * uk,co,yahoo                    Neil Jones            Y
  markonnewsgroups * uk,co,yahoo                  Mark McNeill          Y
  owend * uk,org,greenend,chiark                  Owen Dunn             Y
  ian.clifton * uk,ac,ox,chem                     I J Clifton           Y
  freezing77 * com,gmail                          MJP                   Y
  mad_cyclist * uk,co,hotmail                     dave lambert          Y
  eleanorb * com,gmail                            Eleanor Blair         Y
  socks-netnews * li,earth                        Stephen Gower         Y
  keith * org,flat222                             Keith Willoughby      Y
  felix * com,felixmottram                        Felix Mottram         Y
  peter * uk,co,demon,plgrange                    Peter Grange          Y
  dglassey * com,gmail                            Daniel Glassey        Y
  stillyet * com,googlemail                       Simon Brooke          Y
  mountainoaf * com,gmail                         Mark Harris           Y
  matthew * uk,ac,cam,sel                         Matthew Vernon        Y
  {$mrtickle$} * uk,co,demon,mrtickle             Mike Henry            Y
  clareb+urcm * uk,org,greenend,chiark            Clare Boothby         Y
  rat_at_at_at * com,hotmail                      OG                    Y
  bob * uk,co,downie-geo                          geomannie             Y
  JeremyParker * com,compuserve                   Jeremy Parker         Y
  idh * uk,co,henden                              Ian                   Y
  prgs * net,scandrett                            Peter Scandrett       Y
  andrewm * uk,org,greenend,chiark                Andrew Mobbs          Y
  jpixton * com,gmail                             Joseph Birr-Pixton    Y
  guy.chapman * uk,co,chapmancentral              Guy Chapman           Y
  mike * nz,co,ballantine                         EMB                   Y
  kat.news * com,ntlworld                         kat                   Y
  saramerriman * uk,co,blueyonder                 Sara Merriman         Y
  chris * uk,org,fluffhouse                       Chris Jackson         Y
  mark * uk,co,good-stuff                         Mark Goodge           Y
  cgf * uk,co,familyfrench                        Chris French          Y
  d * uk,co,redpedals                             Danny Colyer          Y
  real-not-anti-spam-address * uk,co,apple-juice  D.M. Procida          Y
  {R} * org,semolina,voting                       {R}                   Y
  steve * uk,co,puppet-head                       Steve                 Y
  maurice * uk,co,demon,grappenhall               Maurice Leslie        Y
  rex.belcher * uk,ac,ox,eng                      Rex                   Y
  mike * com,urgle                                Mike Bristow          Y
  blahdiblah * com,freeuk                         Dave Johnson          Y
  D.H.Davis * uk,ac,bath                          Dennis Davis          Y
  crn * com,netunix                               crn                   Y
  jbpnaylon * uk,co,yahoo                         john                  Y
  armb * uk,org,greenend,chiark                   Alan Braggins         Y
  pwomack * uk,co,papermule                       bugbear               Y
  martin.dann * net,virgin                        Martin Dann           Y
  ncliffe * com,btinternet                        Nigel Cliffe          Y
  kim * net,ductilebiscuit                        Kim Wall              Y
  daniel * net,dignam                             Daniel Dignam         Y
  pag * com,mythic-beasts                         Paul Gilkerson        Y
  dickon * net,cantab                             Dickon Reed           Y
  xpzzzz * net,tesco                              none                  Y
  pcoach * ca,htac                                hbhb                  Y
  dan * net,telent                                Daniel Barlow         Y
  andyl * com,plus,azaal                          Andy Leighton         Y
  bod43 * uk,co,hotmail                           bod43                 Y
  merriman * com,sarlet                           Roger Merriman        Y
  james.annan * com,gmail                         James Annan           Y
  timhenderson * com,sky                          Tim Henderson         Y
  inbox * uk,co,globalnet,pattle                  Andrew Pattle         Y
  ret28 * uk,ac,cam                               Richard Thrippleton   Y
  congokid * com,congokid                         congokid              Y
  monkeyhanger1968 * net,netscape                 Chris Slade           Y
  k1100t * com,gmail                              Bob                   Y
  mcpheat * com,hotmail                           R McPheat             Y
  michael.richard.jones * com,gmail               Mike Jones            Y
  mike * uk,co,tauzero                            Mike Fleming          Y
  paul * uk,co,eclipse,pluton                     Paul Luton            Y
  steve.williams1000 * com,ntlworld               Steve Williams        Y
  john * com,plus,zothique                        John Kendall          Y
  davidh * uk,co,spidacom                         David Hansen          Y
  tapan * uk,co,blueyonder                        Trevor A Panther      Y
  brian13434 * uk,co,yahoo                        BD  (Brian Duffell)   Y
  ijackson * uk,org,greenend,chiark               Ian Jackson           Y
  colin.nelson2 * com,ntlworld                    Colin Nelson          Y
  martin * uk,co,demon,thequiff                   Martin Richardson     Y
  nospam * com,ntlworld                           Rob Morley            Y
  urcm-jan * org,tarasowka                        Jan Wysocki           Y
  nick * org,shmanahar                            Jim                   Y
  colin * uk,co,colinreed                         Colin Reed            Y
  phil * uk,co,kantaka                            Phil Armstrong        Y
  timhall * uk,co,clara                           Tim Hall              Y
  keith.wunohsix * com,btinternet                 Keitht                Y
  phil * uk,me,lee-family                         Phil W Lee            Y
  jdamery * uk,org,greenend,chiark                Jonathan David Amery  Y
  peter * uk,ltd,wpp                              Peter Parry           Y
  tcnw81 * uk,co,demon,tarrcity                   Wm...                 Y
  h-c-s * uk,co,hotmail                           wafflycat             Y
  owenrees * com,waitrose                         Owen Rees             Y
  {voter} * uk,co,clara,watman                    paul                  Y
  passingtyke * uk,co,myzen,tillotson             Passing Tyke          Y
  pmaydell * uk,org,greenend,chiark               Peter Maydell         Y
  r.thorpe * uk,ac,warwick                        Roger Thorpe          Y
  clive * uk,co,evil-c                            Clive George          Y
  bigfoot * org,davros                            Anthony R. Gold       Y
  alan * uk,co,maydavid                           Alan Lee              Y
  p3t3r.f0rd * com,gmail                          Peter Ford            Y
  clive * uk,co,demon,cmartin                     Clive Martin          Y
  legs_larry * com,yahoo                          Dave Larrington       Y
  jpmg * uk,ac,cam,eng                            Patrick Gosling       Y
  cfv * com,thegerhards                           Chris Gerhard         Y
  peter.keller * nz,co,ihug                       Peter Keller          Y
  unet0609 * org,ukfsn,PeterFox                   Peter Fox             Y
  daviduri * com,bigfoot                          David Uri             Y
  john * uk,co,hairy-bunnets                      hbunnet               Y
  rudil * uk,ac,sussex                            Rudi Lutz             Y
  ganesh * li,earth                               Ganesh Sittampalam    Y
  dot * at,dotat                                  Tony Finch            Y
  phil * uk,org,ridgway                           Phil Ridgway          Y
  alex * uk,co,ap-consulting                      Alex Potter           Y
  paul * uk,co,rudin                              Paul Rudin            Y
  roger * org,firedrake                           Roger Burton West     Y
  rjk * uk,org,greenend                           Richard Kettlewell    Y

Voted NO:

  nigel * com,nigedanton                          Nige Danton           N
  noparadise * com,gmail                          Allan Hack-Barr       N
  peadar.ruadh * com,gmail                        Peter J Ross          N
  mail * com,britishschoolofcycling               Tom Crispin           N
  mark * net,homeip,aziraphale                    Mark Williams         N
  judithmsmith * uk,co,live                       Judith Smith          N
  tony.dragon * com,btinternet                    Tony Dragon           N
  huge * uk,org,huge                              Huge                  N
  urcm * uk,me,meldrew                            Victor Meldrew        N
  ACROSLAN * com,altera                           Andrew Crosland       N
  the.happy.hippy * com,ntlworld                  The Happy Hippy       N
  peter * uk,co,pandasys                          pcb1962               N
  Brian * uk,co,force9,bjforster                  Brian                 N
  jax65 * net,talktalk                            Jackie Eastwood       N
  mikeandmichellesmailbox * com,gmail             Aard                  N
  david.kemper * com,ntlworld                     David Kemper          N
  vote * uk,co,malloc                             Steve Firth           N
  albenito * uk,co,freeserve,eclipse2k            Allan Bennett         N
  jefrs * uk,co,jeffslade                         Jeff Slade            N
  Roger.Collier * COM,Sun                         Roger Collier         N
  matt.bourke * com,london                        Matt B                N
  eddie * org,deguello                            Eddie                 N
  pipryder * com,gmail                            Philip Ryder          N
  censorshipnoto * uk,co,yahoo                    Mr Benn               N


  nospam * name,nominet                           .mother               A
  ian * uk,org,astounding                         Ian SMith             A
  usenet05 * uk,me,drabble                        Graham Drabble        A
  chaz * com,chaz6                                Chris Hills           A

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


  y5ojlnx02 * com,sneakemail                      Mark                  Y
        Sent via an email-anonymising service (sneakemail.com)

  steve * uk,org,clarke                           Steve Clarke          Y
        Received out of time

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Votetaker Comments:

This vote had one of the largest turn-outs for very many years, with 156
votes accepted.

The votetaker for the entire voting period was Pedt Scragg, but
unfortunately he went incommunicado before any results were produced.
This eventuality was prepared for, however, with all the voting emails
being backed-up on the central UKVoting server. After it appeared that
Pedt was definitely not going to return imminently, the vote count was
taken over by myself, Jon Ribbens.

I have therefore prepared these results with an eye to getting the
process concluded with reasonable efficiency. There did not appear
to me to be any significant amount of vote fraud, and the margin of
the result - 104 votes - means that investigating any few individual
suspect votes could not possibly affect the outcome, and would only
delay the result further.

I did reject two votes. One was received after the voting deadline, so
is a straightforward reject. The other was sent via an email service,
sneakemail.com, which appears to be specifically intended to hide and
anonymise sender information.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. 
UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on behalf 
of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties.  

The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken are posted 
regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL:


The UKVoting web pages can be found at <http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/>

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to
uk.net.news.announce.  Allegations of irregularity should be sent to
control (at) usenet.org.uk

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


uk.rec.cycling has for some time been suffering from trolling,
nym-shifting and forgeries.  Many of these posts are abusive and
hostile to cycling.  Repetitive flamage now constitutes 50-75% of 
the group by number of articles.  This ongoing and worsening problem 
has been making the group nearly unuseable for ordinary discussion; 
many posters have already left.

I therefore propose that we should create:



PROPONENT's Summary of Discussion

This CFV (and the 2nd RFD, which was almost identical) is the 
result of major changes made to the 1st RFD following extensive 1st 
RFD discussion.  The current proposal is much shorter and simpler 
than the 1st RFD and and has a much more light-touch moderation 

Following the 2nd RFD there was once more an extensive and wide
ranging discussion.  Unfortunately, of the >1400 articles, a 
majority were personal abuse and off-topic ranting.  However, there 
were also some important and relevant points.

At least 31 people posted to say that they were in favour of the
proposal and would like to see it enacted; some of these were 
departed posters from urc who said they would return to use the new 

Many specific questions were asked about the moderators' views 
about various kinds of moderation decision.  One proposed moderator 
reviewed a period of posts to uk.rec.cycling and posted a list of 
messages they would have approved.

Questions were asked and about my technical facilities and skills
as proposed moderation systems host; additionally the operator of
moderation.org.uk kindly volunteered to help with the hosting.

Some people objected to moderation in principle, and/or raised more
detailed objections.  While these objections were strongly expressed
and vigorously pursued often at length, they came from only a handful
of posters and in my view were not supported more generally.

The method by which the moderators were selected was again examined 
in some detail.  It was suggested that the moderators should be
individually elected.  This would be an unusual practice for a
moderated group and in my view raises at least as many problems as it
solves.  The discussion consensus was in favour of the usual approach
(which is to vote on the moderation panel as a whole, and thereafter
have the moderators appoint their successors).

The question of the crossposting policy was once again discussed at
length.  Even amonst more experienced participants in the discussion
there was no clear consensus on whether the moderation policy should
absolutely ban all crossposting.  I have chosen to retain the existing
wording as this will be more truthful (for example, appropriate usenet
management announcements such as RFDs will be permitted the new
moderated group).  The moderators made it clear that they intend to
ban crossposing to uk.rec.cycling and of course crossposted trolling.

There was extensive discussion of the appeal and escalation options
and processes available to people who disagree with moderation
decisions; the answers did not appear to satisfy the objectors.

There was much discussion of the exact status of .signatures,
particularly .sigs containing inflammatory statements (which have been
a problematic feature in urc).  The moderators indicated that messages
with flamebait in the .sig would be rejected.  A few posters objected
and complained that this wasn't spelled out in the moderation policy.

Some other objections I rejected:  The moderation panel was a clique.
The encouragement of `General discussion amongst UK cyclists' was
purely there to allow the clique to post whatever they liked.  The
point was to let people be nasty to trolls without letting trolls
reply.  Permitting limited discussion of the moderation policy in 
the group itself would surely spell doom for the new group.  The
moderators should not blacklist persistent offenders or should only 
do so with reference to some formal procedure.  Crossposting was not
being 100% ruled out because the plan was to crosspost trolling rants
in hostile newsgroups.  Moderation decisions should be governed by
published procedures to ensure consistency.  The failure of
uk.local.yorkshire.moderated demonstrated that creating a moderated
newsgroup could not solve a noise problem.  uk.rec.cycling had been
much better recently so it would be better to wait six months and see
if moderation was still needed then.


CHANGES from the last RFD

Banning `obscenity' gave the impression that cursing would not be
permitted, despite the general view (as in the previous discussion)
that it should be allowed.  `Obscenity' was also thought rather 
vague. There being no reason to retain it, The moderation policy 
has been altered to remove `obscenity' from the list of things 

Asking posters to uk.rec.cycling to `switch' to the new group was 
felt by some to be inappropriate. The moderation policy now speaks
of 'inviting posters and readers' without suggesting that they 
should abandon the unmoderated group.

The rationale previously referred to telephone harassment suffered 
by a poster to uk.rec.cycling.  This didn't add anything to the 
proposal and was needlessly controversial so, following suggestions 
in the discussion, this has been removed.

There are no changes to the charter or moderator panel.



The following are on-topic and encouraged:
 * Discussions regarding cycling within the UK;
 * Discussion on cycling more generally, but which retains a focus
   on cycling within the UK;
 * General discussion amongst UK cyclists;
 * Announcements of specific interest to UK cyclists.

The following are prohibited:
 * Advertising which is not specifically relevant to UK cycling;
 * Personal abuse; flames;
 * Repetitious posting which does not bring new information to the

Crossposting is at present generally not permitted.
Brief and constructive discussion of the moderation policy is
permitted in the newsgroup itself.

The moderators operate a passlist system, so that messages from
regular on-topic posters can be posted promptly and automatically.
Threads which have descended into repetition or abuse may be closed by
the moderators.

Decisions by individual moderators to approve or reject a posting, or
to close a thread, may be appealed by private email to the whole
moderation panel.

This policy may be updated by the moderation panel as they see fit.

The moderators can be reached at

A summary of approved and rejected posts is available on the website.

The moderators will make a regular posting to uk.rec.cycling,
advertising the moderated group and inviting readers and posters.


  Alan Braggins
  Andy Leighton
  Danny Colyer
  David Damerell
  Ian Jackson
  Martin Dann
  Nigel Cliffe
  Peter Clinch
  Peter Fox
  Roger Thorpe
  Simon Brooke



uk.rec.cycling.moderated              Cycling in the UK (Moderated)


CHARTER: uk.rec.cycling.moderated

This group is for the discussion of all matters relating to cycling
and the UK.  Recreational cycling, cycling for transport, racing, and
other forms of cycling are all on-topic.

Moderation will be used to ensure that the group remains civil,
pleasant, and of interest to cyclists.

The moderators may use whatever tools and processes they collectively
feel appropriate to ensure the smooth running of the group.

Binaries and Formatting

Encoded binaries (eg pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which a
pointer may be posted.  Cryptographic signatures (eg PGP) may be used
where authentication is important and should be as short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text.  HTML, RTF and similarly
formatted messages are prohibited.  To see how to make some common
news readers comply with this, read  


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