Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!novia!transit4.readnews.com!news-out.readnews.com!postnews3.readnews.com!not-for-mail From: Jon Ribbens Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.rec.cycling Subject: RESULT : Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated PASSES 128:24 Followup-To: uk.net.news.config Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:25:38 +0100 Message-ID: Sender: Chris Croughton as Control Approved: Chris Croughton as Control Lines: 517 NNTP-Posting-Host: 8d03b409.gradwell.net X-Trace: DXC=3m_6XbQPVilYUCJFk0DMej@lWf8?fSK:ajS@R6]oDiIo6=9b6;ABCHi?kLaKQECIMhjTn\KcCI2eoWT4nd^6H6Ij X-Complaints-To: abuse@gradwellnet Bytes: 26157 X-Original-Bytes: 26113 Xref: number.nntp.dca.giganews.com uk.rec.cycling:718530 uk.net.news.config:241844 uk.net.news.announce:3866 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- RESULT OF CALL FOR VOTES Summary: Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated PASSES 128:24 YES beat NO by a majority of 104 votes. For group passage, there must be 12 more YES votes than NO votes. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Voting closed at 23:59:59 BST, 7th August 2009. Proponent : Ian Jackson Succeeded by Jon Ribbens for the vote count. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: uk.net.news.announce uk.net.news.config uk.rec.cycling - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Results: The results follow below in the following order: 1) Summary of Mail Received During the Voting Period 2) Results 3) Individual Vote Details 4) Votetakers Comments 5) Voting and Appeal Guidelines 6) Rationale 7) Newsgroups Line 8) Proposed Charter - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY OF MAIL RECEIVED DURING THE VOTING PERIOD 194 emails were received at the ballot request address: 193 : valid ballot requests 1 : test by the votetaker 176 emails were received at the vote submission address: 170 : valid votes (including re-votes) 1 : someone requesting a ballot paper back to the autoresponder 1 : email regarding the vote 1 : blank email 1 : email received out of time 2 : tests by the votetaker - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- RESULTS: Create moderated newsgroup uk.rec.cycling.moderated YES : 128 votes NO : 24 votes ABSTAIN : 4 votes ------------------- Total : 156 votes YES beat NO by a majority of 104 votes. For group passage, there must be 12 more YES votes than NO votes. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- INDIVIDUAL VOTE DETAILS Voted YES: pschleck * net,novia,oasis Paul W. Schleck Y cam * uk,ac,ed,holyrood Chris Malcolm Y pete.whelan * com,talk21 Pete Whelan Y steve * uk,co,stevegouldstone steveg Y goo18731 * uk,co,yahoo PhilO Y damerell+urcm * uk,org,greenend,chiark David Damerell Y spiralpathways * com,googlemail Colin Langdon Y news003 * uk,me,woodall Tim Woodall Y a24061a * com,ducksburg Adam Funk Y urcmvote * uk,co,f9,chthonic Mike Trinder Y Emcmiddleton * com,aol Emily Middleton Y palmersperry * com,yahoo Alistair Gunn Y cgv * de,aprice Andrew Price Y mrc7 * uk,ac,cam Mike Clark Y andrew_d_may * com,hotmail Andrew May Y news06 * com,crazyscot Ross Younger Y wirral_cyclist * uk,co,yahoo Neil Jones Y markonnewsgroups * uk,co,yahoo Mark McNeill Y owend * uk,org,greenend,chiark Owen Dunn Y ian.clifton * uk,ac,ox,chem I J Clifton Y freezing77 * com,gmail MJP Y mad_cyclist * uk,co,hotmail dave lambert Y eleanorb * com,gmail Eleanor Blair Y socks-netnews * li,earth Stephen Gower Y keith * org,flat222 Keith Willoughby Y felix * com,felixmottram Felix Mottram Y peter * uk,co,demon,plgrange Peter Grange Y dglassey * com,gmail Daniel Glassey Y stillyet * com,googlemail Simon Brooke Y mountainoaf * com,gmail Mark Harris Y matthew * uk,ac,cam,sel Matthew Vernon Y {$mrtickle$} * uk,co,demon,mrtickle Mike Henry Y clareb+urcm * uk,org,greenend,chiark Clare Boothby Y rat_at_at_at * com,hotmail OG Y bob * uk,co,downie-geo geomannie Y JeremyParker * com,compuserve Jeremy Parker Y idh * uk,co,henden Ian Y prgs * net,scandrett Peter Scandrett Y andrewm * uk,org,greenend,chiark Andrew Mobbs Y jpixton * com,gmail Joseph Birr-Pixton Y guy.chapman * uk,co,chapmancentral Guy Chapman Y mike * nz,co,ballantine EMB Y kat.news * com,ntlworld kat Y saramerriman * uk,co,blueyonder Sara Merriman Y chris * uk,org,fluffhouse Chris Jackson Y mark * uk,co,good-stuff Mark Goodge Y cgf * uk,co,familyfrench Chris French Y d * uk,co,redpedals Danny Colyer Y real-not-anti-spam-address * uk,co,apple-juice D.M. Procida Y {R} * org,semolina,voting {R} Y steve * uk,co,puppet-head Steve Y maurice * uk,co,demon,grappenhall Maurice Leslie Y rex.belcher * uk,ac,ox,eng Rex Y mike * com,urgle Mike Bristow Y blahdiblah * com,freeuk Dave Johnson Y D.H.Davis * uk,ac,bath Dennis Davis Y crn * com,netunix crn Y jbpnaylon * uk,co,yahoo john Y armb * uk,org,greenend,chiark Alan Braggins Y pwomack * uk,co,papermule bugbear Y martin.dann * net,virgin Martin Dann Y ncliffe * com,btinternet Nigel Cliffe Y kim * net,ductilebiscuit Kim Wall Y daniel * net,dignam Daniel Dignam Y pag * com,mythic-beasts Paul Gilkerson Y dickon * net,cantab Dickon Reed Y xpzzzz * net,tesco none Y pcoach * ca,htac hbhb Y dan * net,telent Daniel Barlow Y andyl * com,plus,azaal Andy Leighton Y bod43 * uk,co,hotmail bod43 Y merriman * com,sarlet Roger Merriman Y james.annan * com,gmail James Annan Y timhenderson * com,sky Tim Henderson Y inbox * uk,co,globalnet,pattle Andrew Pattle Y ret28 * uk,ac,cam Richard Thrippleton Y congokid * com,congokid congokid Y monkeyhanger1968 * net,netscape Chris Slade Y k1100t * com,gmail Bob Y mcpheat * com,hotmail R McPheat Y michael.richard.jones * com,gmail Mike Jones Y mike * uk,co,tauzero Mike Fleming Y paul * uk,co,eclipse,pluton Paul Luton Y steve.williams1000 * com,ntlworld Steve Williams Y john * com,plus,zothique John Kendall Y davidh * uk,co,spidacom David Hansen Y tapan * uk,co,blueyonder Trevor A Panther Y brian13434 * uk,co,yahoo BD (Brian Duffell) Y ijackson * uk,org,greenend,chiark Ian Jackson Y colin.nelson2 * com,ntlworld Colin Nelson Y martin * uk,co,demon,thequiff Martin Richardson Y nospam * com,ntlworld Rob Morley Y urcm-jan * org,tarasowka Jan Wysocki Y nick * org,shmanahar Jim Y colin * uk,co,colinreed Colin Reed Y phil * uk,co,kantaka Phil Armstrong Y timhall * uk,co,clara Tim Hall Y keith.wunohsix * com,btinternet Keitht Y phil * uk,me,lee-family Phil W Lee Y jdamery * uk,org,greenend,chiark Jonathan David Amery Y peter * uk,ltd,wpp Peter Parry Y tcnw81 * uk,co,demon,tarrcity Wm... Y h-c-s * uk,co,hotmail wafflycat Y owenrees * com,waitrose Owen Rees Y {voter} * uk,co,clara,watman paul Y passingtyke * uk,co,myzen,tillotson Passing Tyke Y pmaydell * uk,org,greenend,chiark Peter Maydell Y r.thorpe * uk,ac,warwick Roger Thorpe Y clive * uk,co,evil-c Clive George Y bigfoot * org,davros Anthony R. Gold Y alan * uk,co,maydavid Alan Lee Y p3t3r.f0rd * com,gmail Peter Ford Y clive * uk,co,demon,cmartin Clive Martin Y legs_larry * com,yahoo Dave Larrington Y jpmg * uk,ac,cam,eng Patrick Gosling Y cfv * com,thegerhards Chris Gerhard Y peter.keller * nz,co,ihug Peter Keller Y unet0609 * org,ukfsn,PeterFox Peter Fox Y daviduri * com,bigfoot David Uri Y john * uk,co,hairy-bunnets hbunnet Y rudil * uk,ac,sussex Rudi Lutz Y ganesh * li,earth Ganesh Sittampalam Y dot * at,dotat Tony Finch Y phil * uk,org,ridgway Phil Ridgway Y alex * uk,co,ap-consulting Alex Potter Y paul * uk,co,rudin Paul Rudin Y roger * org,firedrake Roger Burton West Y rjk * uk,org,greenend Richard Kettlewell Y Voted NO: nigel * com,nigedanton Nige Danton N noparadise * com,gmail Allan Hack-Barr N peadar.ruadh * com,gmail Peter J Ross N mail * com,britishschoolofcycling Tom Crispin N mark * net,homeip,aziraphale Mark Williams N judithmsmith * uk,co,live Judith Smith N tony.dragon * com,btinternet Tony Dragon N huge * uk,org,huge Huge N urcm * uk,me,meldrew Victor Meldrew N ACROSLAN * com,altera Andrew Crosland N the.happy.hippy * com,ntlworld The Happy Hippy N peter * uk,co,pandasys pcb1962 N Brian * uk,co,force9,bjforster Brian N jax65 * net,talktalk Jackie Eastwood N mikeandmichellesmailbox * com,gmail Aard N david.kemper * com,ntlworld David Kemper N vote * uk,co,malloc Steve Firth N albenito * uk,co,freeserve,eclipse2k Allan Bennett N jefrs * uk,co,jeffslade Jeff Slade N Roger.Collier * COM,Sun Roger Collier N matt.bourke * com,london Matt B N eddie * org,deguello Eddie N pipryder * com,gmail Philip Ryder N censorshipnoto * uk,co,yahoo Mr Benn N Voted ABSTAIN: nospam * name,nominet .mother A ian * uk,org,astounding Ian SMith A usenet05 * uk,me,drabble Graham Drabble A chaz * com,chaz6 Chris Hills A - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- REJECTED VOTES y5ojlnx02 * com,sneakemail Mark Y Sent via an email-anonymising service (sneakemail.com) steve * uk,org,clarke Steve Clarke Y Received out of time - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Votetaker Comments: This vote had one of the largest turn-outs for very many years, with 156 votes accepted. The votetaker for the entire voting period was Pedt Scragg, but unfortunately he went incommunicado before any results were produced. This eventuality was prepared for, however, with all the voting emails being backed-up on the central UKVoting server. After it appeared that Pedt was definitely not going to return imminently, the vote count was taken over by myself, Jon Ribbens. I have therefore prepared these results with an eye to getting the process concluded with reasonable efficiency. There did not appear to me to be any significant amount of vote fraud, and the margin of the result - 104 votes - means that investigating any few individual suspect votes could not possibly affect the outcome, and would only delay the result further. I did reject two votes. One was received after the voting deadline, so is a straightforward reject. The other was sent via an email service, sneakemail.com, which appears to be specifically intended to hide and anonymise sender information. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on behalf of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties. The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL: The UKVoting web pages can be found at There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to uk.net.news.announce. Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control (at) usenet.org.uk - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- RATIONALE uk.rec.cycling has for some time been suffering from trolling, nym-shifting and forgeries. Many of these posts are abusive and hostile to cycling. Repetitive flamage now constitutes 50-75% of the group by number of articles. This ongoing and worsening problem has been making the group nearly unuseable for ordinary discussion; many posters have already left. I therefore propose that we should create: uk.rec.cycling.moderated =================================================================== PROPONENT's Summary of Discussion This CFV (and the 2nd RFD, which was almost identical) is the result of major changes made to the 1st RFD following extensive 1st RFD discussion. The current proposal is much shorter and simpler than the 1st RFD and and has a much more light-touch moderation policy. Following the 2nd RFD there was once more an extensive and wide ranging discussion. Unfortunately, of the >1400 articles, a majority were personal abuse and off-topic ranting. However, there were also some important and relevant points. At least 31 people posted to say that they were in favour of the proposal and would like to see it enacted; some of these were departed posters from urc who said they would return to use the new group. Many specific questions were asked about the moderators' views about various kinds of moderation decision. One proposed moderator reviewed a period of posts to uk.rec.cycling and posted a list of messages they would have approved. Questions were asked and about my technical facilities and skills as proposed moderation systems host; additionally the operator of moderation.org.uk kindly volunteered to help with the hosting. Some people objected to moderation in principle, and/or raised more detailed objections. While these objections were strongly expressed and vigorously pursued often at length, they came from only a handful of posters and in my view were not supported more generally. The method by which the moderators were selected was again examined in some detail. It was suggested that the moderators should be individually elected. This would be an unusual practice for a moderated group and in my view raises at least as many problems as it solves. The discussion consensus was in favour of the usual approach (which is to vote on the moderation panel as a whole, and thereafter have the moderators appoint their successors). The question of the crossposting policy was once again discussed at length. Even amonst more experienced participants in the discussion there was no clear consensus on whether the moderation policy should absolutely ban all crossposting. I have chosen to retain the existing wording as this will be more truthful (for example, appropriate usenet management announcements such as RFDs will be permitted the new moderated group). The moderators made it clear that they intend to ban crossposing to uk.rec.cycling and of course crossposted trolling. There was extensive discussion of the appeal and escalation options and processes available to people who disagree with moderation decisions; the answers did not appear to satisfy the objectors. There was much discussion of the exact status of .signatures, particularly .sigs containing inflammatory statements (which have been a problematic feature in urc). The moderators indicated that messages with flamebait in the .sig would be rejected. A few posters objected and complained that this wasn't spelled out in the moderation policy. Some other objections I rejected: The moderation panel was a clique. The encouragement of `General discussion amongst UK cyclists' was purely there to allow the clique to post whatever they liked. The point was to let people be nasty to trolls without letting trolls reply. Permitting limited discussion of the moderation policy in the group itself would surely spell doom for the new group. The moderators should not blacklist persistent offenders or should only do so with reference to some formal procedure. Crossposting was not being 100% ruled out because the plan was to crosspost trolling rants in hostile newsgroups. Moderation decisions should be governed by published procedures to ensure consistency. The failure of uk.local.yorkshire.moderated demonstrated that creating a moderated newsgroup could not solve a noise problem. uk.rec.cycling had been much better recently so it would be better to wait six months and see if moderation was still needed then. =================================================================== CHANGES from the last RFD Banning `obscenity' gave the impression that cursing would not be permitted, despite the general view (as in the previous discussion) that it should be allowed. `Obscenity' was also thought rather vague. There being no reason to retain it, The moderation policy has been altered to remove `obscenity' from the list of things prohibited. Asking posters to uk.rec.cycling to `switch' to the new group was felt by some to be inappropriate. The moderation policy now speaks of 'inviting posters and readers' without suggesting that they should abandon the unmoderated group. The rationale previously referred to telephone harassment suffered by a poster to uk.rec.cycling. This didn't add anything to the proposal and was needlessly controversial so, following suggestions in the discussion, this has been removed. There are no changes to the charter or moderator panel. =================================================================== INITIAL MODERATION POLICY The following are on-topic and encouraged: * Discussions regarding cycling within the UK; * Discussion on cycling more generally, but which retains a focus on cycling within the UK; * General discussion amongst UK cyclists; * Announcements of specific interest to UK cyclists. The following are prohibited: * Advertising which is not specifically relevant to UK cycling; * Personal abuse; flames; * Repetitious posting which does not bring new information to the discussion. Crossposting is at present generally not permitted. Brief and constructive discussion of the moderation policy is permitted in the newsgroup itself. The moderators operate a passlist system, so that messages from regular on-topic posters can be posted promptly and automatically. Threads which have descended into repetition or abuse may be closed by the moderators. Decisions by individual moderators to approve or reject a posting, or to close a thread, may be appealed by private email to the whole moderation panel. This policy may be updated by the moderation panel as they see fit. The moderators can be reached at urcm-moderators@chiark.greenend.org.uk http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/urcm/ A summary of approved and rejected posts is available on the website. The moderators will make a regular posting to uk.rec.cycling, advertising the moderated group and inviting readers and posters. Moderators: Alan Braggins Andy Leighton Danny Colyer David Damerell Ian Jackson Martin Dann Nigel Cliffe Peter Clinch Peter Fox Roger Thorpe Simon Brooke =================================================================== NEWSGROUPS LINE uk.rec.cycling.moderated Cycling in the UK (Moderated) =================================================================== CHARTER: uk.rec.cycling.moderated This group is for the discussion of all matters relating to cycling and the UK. Recreational cycling, cycling for transport, racing, and other forms of cycling are all on-topic. Moderation will be used to ensure that the group remains civil, pleasant, and of interest to cyclists. The moderators may use whatever tools and processes they collectively feel appropriate to ensure the smooth running of the group. Binaries and Formatting Encoded binaries (eg pictures, compressed files, etc.) are forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which a pointer may be posted. Cryptographic signatures (eg PGP) may be used where authentication is important and should be as short as possible. Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly formatted messages are prohibited. To see how to make some common news readers comply with this, read http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html END CHARTER -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG-v1.4.6-(GNU/Linux) Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBSrfFKGOfGXkh8vHZAQK87wP/VNVVPRHaxXbS+6P/mXwIF5qDNUJqjV1M EjC0ZaVz8C94nxMI3heN8Viw9kNKQ6Qzig3BE8NvoKJo8OniK9QloG0Qb6RAKx1d SiPFHbly93vEAID5wjCkv055ocPRoZ9vtpOMOVXEsUyAtqc5oCV3MxTlNxb90TyA fKRxXRPJgIE= =xt5b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----