07 Jun 1999: uk.telecom.moderated

From: Alan Fleming <af@contract.co.uk>
Date: 7 Jun 1999 22:06:24 +0100
Subject: AMENDED RESULT - uk.telecom.moderated PASSES 82:57
Newsgroups: uk.net.news.config,uk.net.news.announce,uk.telecom

Votetaker's note: This amended result is being issued because I miscounted
one vote.  Apologies for the inconvenience to all those concerned.


		    Summary: uk.telecom.moderated vote

	       Creation of uk.telecom.moderated PASSES 82:57

- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Voting closed at Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:59:59 BST

Proponent: peter@gradwell.com (Peter Gradwell)
Votetaker: af@contract.co.uk (Alan Fleming)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

uk.net.news.announce, uk.net.news.config, uk.telecom

- ------------------------------------------------------------------

The Results:

The results follow below in the following order:

1) Result
2) Particulars of the Vote
3) Votetakers comments
4) Voting and Appeal guidelines
5) Rationale & Charter

PROPOSAL - Creation of uk.telecom.moderated

YES = 82
NO = 57

YES beat NO by a majority of 25 votes.
This is more than the +12 majority needed for the proposal to succeed.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------

The Particulars of the Vote


Anthony R. Gold		tgold ;panix !moc
Alan Belbin			durness ;netcomuk.co !ku
Alasdair Baxter		alasdair ;dram.demon.co !ku
Alex Blamey			alexnn2 ;blamey.freeserve.co !ku
Alex Holden			votes ;alexh.clara.co !ku
Alexander Hemsley		zandy ;hemsley.demon.co !ku
Andrew Le Prevost		andrew ;leprevost !ten
Andrew Tringham		telecom ;tringham.demon.co !ku
Andrew Wineberg		A.Wineberg ;btinternet !moc
Anthony Naggs		amn ;ubik.demon.co !ku
Arthur Pye			apye ;arthurpye.demon.co !ku
Barry Oakley		beo ;stepup.demon.co !ku
Barry Salter		barrykas ;salterg.demon.co !ku
Brian J. Forster		Brian ;bjforster.force9.co !ku
Brian White			brian.white ;pobox !moc
Chris Boots			chris ;boots.demon.co !ku
Chris Hunter		chris-h ;monrepos.demon.co !ku
Chris Sumner		uktmvote ;cpsumner.freeserve.co !ku
Chris Townley		chris ;townleyc.demon.co !ku
Colin Price			colin ;frogmore6.demon.co !ku
David Floyd			david ;keynsham.demon.co !ku
David Habanec		xchat ;iname !moc
David Marsh			drmarsh ;bigfoot !moc
David Thornton		david ;davidthornton !moc
Denis McMahon		denis ;pickaxe.demon.co !ku
Dominic Young		dominic.young ;lineone !ten
Don Carter			don ;dc-train.demon.co !ku
Douglas Lewins		abp ;orcc.demon.co !ku
Dragan Cvetkovic		draganc ;soc.plym.ac !ku
Frank Bowles		Frank.Bowles ;poboxes !moc
Gareth Davies		garethd ;dial.pipex !moc
Geoff Clare			gwc ;unisoft !moc
Gerard Alan Latham	Gerard ;galatham.demon.co !ku
Graham Wilson		graham ;dircon.co !ku
Grant Mason			grant ;mason1.freeserve.co !ku
Harfynn Teuport		teuport ;hotmail !moc
Henry Helliwell		mort ;toth.org !ku
Ian Peattie			ian ;john-richard.co !ku
Ian Sharp			cfv ;sharpip.demon.co !ku
James Bellaire		bellaire ;tk !moc
James Bryant		James.Bryant ;marconicomms !moc
James Sears			james ;acornusers !gro
Jane Anna Langley		A.Langley ;uel.ac !ku
John A. Green		u04jag.abdn ;zetnet.co !ku
John B Stock		jbstock ;btinternet !moc
John C Prentice		9608226p ;udcf.gla.ac !ku
John C. Elliott		herbie ;tesco !ten
John E Wynn			john ;vetchfield.win-uk !ten
John Reid			John.Reid ;jazza.demon.co !ku
Joseph Otten		joe.otten ;virgin !ten
Julie Brandon		julie-vote ;merp.demon.co !ku
Keith Brazington		keith ;quetz.demon.co !ku
Kevin Andreoli		kevin.andreoli ;btinternet !moc
Mark Killingback		cuba ;globalnet.co !ku
Markus G. Kltzer		mgk ;gmx.at
Martin G Bridges		bridgesm ;logica !moc
Michael Parry		michael ;cavrdg.demon.co !ku
Mike Alexander		alexanm ;it.moray.gov !ku
Natthew Thomson		matthewt ;fairplay.co !ku
neil p chue hong		npch ;tardis.ed.ac !ku
Nick Leverton		leveret ;warren.demon.co !ku
Peter Dent			p-dent ;iboro.freeserve.co !ku
Peter McMinn		uktmvote ;lemoncurry.cix.co !ku
Rajeev Gupte		rajeev.gupte ;gecm !moc
Robert McKinney		sms-robert ;usa !ten
Robert Wooley		rob ;robert.woolley.easynet.co !ku
Ross Beresford		ross ;bryson.demon.co !ku
Ross Younger		wry20 ;cai.cam.ac !ku
Sak Wathanasin		sw ;nan.co !ku
Seb Wills			saw27 ;cam.ac !ku
Simon Gardner		666 ;hack.powernet.co !ku
Steve Dodd			dirk ;loth.demon.co !ku
Steve Peake			puppet ;dial.pipex !moc
Tim Clark			T.Clark ;warwick.ac !ku
Tim Jackson			tim_jackson ;bigfoot !moc
Tim Skinner			tim ;palacecs.demon.co !ku
Tobias Erle			vote-uk ;kholdan.snafu !ed
Tom Hughes			tom ;compton !un
Tom Joyce			T.M.Joyce ;durham.ac !ku
Tom Porter			tom ;memories1.demon.co !ku
Tony Game			tgame ;netcomuk.co !ku
Tony Wright			tony ;yrl.co !ku

NO Votes

A. Lindsay			uktmvote ;ananam.demon.co !ku
Alan J Pitcher		alan ;picarium.demon.co !ku
Alasdair Allan		x-static ;null !ten
Alex Hardisty		alex ;pqm-cons.demon.co !ku
Charles Lindsey		chl ;clw.cs.man.ac !ku
Charlie Freckleton	charlie ;genest.demon.co !ku
Chris Davies		chris ;roaima.demon.co !ku
Christian Hansen		chris ;hansenhome.demon.co !ku
Conor O'Neill		conor ;puddle.demon.co !ku
Darren Wyn Rees		merlin ;A470.demon.co !ku
Dave G Smith		dave ;pict.demon.co !ku
Dave Mayall			david.mayall ;ukonline.co !ku
David Mahon			dmahon ;amigo.demon.co !ku
Dermot O'Riordan		dermot ;oriordan.co !ku
Doug Ritchie		doug ;drpc.demon.co !ku
Edward King			eaking ;ulape.demon.co !ku
Gareth Babb			hick ;mojo !gro
Howard Orgel		Howard.Orgel ;orgels.demon.co !ku
Ian Cox			einstein ;enterprise !ten
James Coupe			james ;obeah.demon.co !ku
jAmES Lawson		chasm ;ccl4 !gro
Jeff Taylor			voter ;clearview.cix.co !ku
Jim Ley			jim ;jibbering !moc
John Wright			jsw22 ;rl.ac !ku
Jon Plews			jonplews ;dial.pipex !moc
Karel Hladky		khladky ;khdesign.demon.co !ku
Keith Hood			etlkeod ;etlxdmx.ericsson.se
Maga Tweed			magawiska ;softhome !ten
Marc Cornelius		cornelius ;vercor.demon.co !ku
Martin Durkin		martin.durkin ;ntc.nokia !moc
Mike Clements		mjc ;mchome.demon.co !ku
Mike Henry			mike ;tw2 !moc
Nick Wynne			nick ;beachyhd.demon.co !ku
Paul Bolchover		pb10003 ;cus.cam.ac !ku
Paul Harrison		valid.143.expires.990514 ;peharri.beon !ten
Paul Martin			pm ;zetnet !ten
Peter Bruce			news ;thule.demon.co !ku
Peter Corlett		abuse ;verrine.demon.co !ku
Peter G. Strangman	Peter ;adelheid.demon.co !ku
Peter Ilieve		peter ;aldie.co !ku
Peter Moore			peter.moore ;virgin !ten
Peter Parry			peter ;wppltd.demon.co !ku
Peter Sumner		peter ;sumnerp.demon.co !ku
Rich Wood			rich ;ruh-bath.swest.nhs !ku
Richard Ashton		richard ;corixia.demon.co !ku
Richard Clayton		richard ;turnpike !moc
Richard Morris		abuse ;the-pub.freeserve.co !ku
Robert Felton		swinny ;cix.co !ku
Shane Matthews		shane.matthews ;perseco.co !ku
Simon Bonnick		simon ;trimcase !moc
Stephen Packer		spacker ;iee !gro
Steve Randall		steve ;pqm-cons.demon.co !ku
Steve Stacher		zsnowman ;email !moc
Stuart Millington		phupp ;wormhole.demon.co !ku
Sunil Sood			news ;soods.freeserve.co !ku
Vartan Narinian		v.narinian ;ic.ac !ku
William	Boughton	bill ;xencat.demon.co !ku


Andy Mabbett		andy ;pigsonthewing.demon.co !ku
Billyboy			billyboy ;gto.net !mo
Paul Womar			Vote ;pwomar.demon.co !ku
Peter Gradwell		peter ;gradwell !moc
Richard Kettlewell	rjk ;greenend.org !ku
Simon Gray			simon ;star-one.org !ku


Gloria Clarke		gloriac ;nortelnetworks !moc
- - No name or address specified in message.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

Votetakers Notes:

Another big vote this, and I couldn't tell which way it would go until
the end. Half a dozen people voted on both first and second CFV for
some reason.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting.
UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes
on behalf of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties.

The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken
are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the
following URL:


The UKVoting web pages can be found at http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to

Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control@usenet.org.uk.

- --------------------------------------------------------------


An expectedly heated discussion surrounded this request with the main
topics being whether there was a need for the group. One argument was
whether the group would be duplicating uk.telecom, thus fragmenting the
discussion and rendering it's self useless. the second was whether the
rationale (that we needed a moderated group to seperate the wheat from
the chaffe), as valid, because traditional kill files were capable of
performing the same job of filtering, with out the 'big brother' aspects
of moderation.

Examples were given of many other groups who had duplicate 'misc' and
'moderated' groups, and were countered by numerous examples of good
kill-filing software. Those in the pro-moderation camp cited their
inability to filter and also their desire to have 'upstream' filtering
in place to save them the effort.

There was minor debate about items such as cross posting and whether to
moderate uk.telecom. The arguments re cross-posting were that it should
be permitted, but not excessively. With respect to moderating uk.telecom
(over creating uk.telecom.moderated), it was felt that this was not
relevant to the discussion of the creation of uk.telecom.moderated.

RATIONALE: uk.telecom.moderated

uk.telecom has enjoyed a lively amount of traffic and high quality
discussion since its founding. Within the past number of months the
group has attracted a large amount of spam, off-topic and malicious
posts and flooding attacks.

Whilst recent developments have meant that the level of noise has
reduced significantly, the proponent still feels that moderation is of
benefit to the group in order to maintain the signal level.

The discussion of the first RFD has indicated that current software may be
capable of dealing with such abuse, however, not everyone uses, nor is able
to use such software, and indeed, not everyone wants to spend time
maintaining a kill file - why should every reader have to do something
that moderators could do for all?

The creation of uk.telecom.moderated may seem to render uk.telecom
redundant. However, at this stage it is suggested that uk.telecom ought to
be left, and that a further decision should be made 3 months after the
creation of uk.telecom.moderated.

The proponent does not wish to moderate uk.telecom because he feels that
uk.telecom may be better dealt with by renaming, or by having a charter
defined and that with respect to his comment below (re comp.lang.perl.*),
he feels that a moderated group is required for 'high signal level'

The proponent notes the comp.lang.perl.* news groups, where by there
exists a high signal to noise ratio in comp.lang.perl.moderated and a high
level of talk in comp.lang.perl.misc.

CHARTER: uk.telecom.moderated

uk.telecom.moderated is a group that operates in the spirit of
the original uk.telecom group.  While some off-topic discussions may prove
valuable, the following topics should be focused on:

    non-mobile uk telecom devices and systems;
    uk telecom numbering schemes;
    uk telecom providers;
    Short press releases / announcements with pointers to urls;
    Telecom  services currently offered in the uk (e.g. ISDN, Home
    Telecom services which may in future be offered in the uk (e.g. Cable
        modems) but only in the context of their telephony service
        (i.e. not internet service).
    Cordless telephony devices, of limited range, such as DECT based

The following are not on topic:
    mobile uk telecom devices, systems and providers;

Official postings by members of the uk telephony providers and regulators
are most welcome;

The group shall not accept any binary postings, but references to ftp or
http sites are welcome;

Posts must be made in plain text format (i.e. Not HTML or MIME).

Advertising is not allowed, except in signatures, which should comply
with the appropriate standards.

Cross posting: a maximum additional 2 news groups is permitted, but with
the exception of administrative messages cross posts within the uk
hierachy are expressly not permitted.

As the uk.telecom mini-FAQ says:
"If you talk sense about telecoms you will not go far wrong".


MODERATOR INFO: uk.telecom.moderated

The group shall accept all posts which have passed moderation on the
following basis:

Each message must contain, either as a reply-to or from header one
routeable email address by which the moderators may contact the poster.

This email address must be given in a form that the moderators could
decode/manipulate/reform so that the moderators could contact the

All postings from addresses on a `white list' of established posters
will be posted to the group automatically.

All postings from addresses on a `black list' will be rejected

All other posts shall go to human moderators. They may then be approved,
and thus posted. Or rejected on one of the following grounds:

    off topic - the message is not relevant to uk telecom and should be
        discussed elsewhere. If possible, the moderators will provide a

    cross post - the message has been excessively cross posted;

    charter - the message violates some other rule in the charter;

    harassing - the message is of a harrasing nature and thus not suitable;

Where possible an explanation for all rejected posts shall be sent to
the author of the rejected post;

An automatic confirmation that the post is being considered for
inclusion shall be sent in response to every post considered by the
moderators. Readers will be able to disable this confirmation.

The moderators will take submissions at submit@uk-telecom.org.uk

A member may join the white list if they post 10 on topic articles to the
news group and they have not been black-listed in the previous 3 months,
or at the moderators discretion.

A member will join the blacklist, or be removed from the white list in the
following circumstances:

    The person who has seriously or consistently violated the group's

    In the event of serious abuse directed against the moderator,

    If a poster forges newsgroup headers or gives a fake id.

In such a case, the moderator must immediately send the offender and the
"moderation board" a notice outlining the reason for this action. A person
disciplined in this manner has the right to demand that the moderator
posts a copy of this notice to the newsgroup for comment by other

In the event of there being no remaining moderators a request to remove
the group from usenet will be generated - due to the requirements of
Usenet (this is not a choice that the moderators have an alternative for).

Full details of the moderation procedure, including contact details
shall be available at http://www.uk-telecom.org.uk/ and posted to the
group monthly.

	Grievances should first be taken up with the moderator list
	by email at moderators@uk-telecom.org.uk. If the issue is
	not resolved to the person's satisfaction they can bring the
	issue up to the "moderation board", to whom the moderators are
	responsible, after the moderators are given sufficient time to
	resolve the issue (at least 3 days, due to mail accessibility
	and propagation delay issues).

	The moderators will be responsible to a "moderation board". This
	group acts as an oversight committee.  They have no official
	power, but are rather a publicly accessible mailing list where
	people can air their grievances. It is to be understood that
	bringing a post to this list is accepting the greater propagation
	of the more public list.

	If the "moderation board" decide that a moderator is indeed
	abusing their power he will be removed from the list of moderators
	or censured at their discretion.

	The "moderation board" may be contacted via email to
	board@uk-telecom.org.uk. You may join by sending an email to


- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Fleming

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