From: Alan Fleming Newsgroups: uk.net.news.config,uk.net.news.announce,uk.telecom Subject: AMENDED RESULT - uk.telecom.moderated PASSES 82:57 Date: 7 Jun 1999 22:06:24 +0100 Message-ID: Votetaker's note: This amended result is being issued because I miscounted one vote. Apologies for the inconvenience to all those concerned. AMENDED RESULT OF CALL FOR VOTES Summary: uk.telecom.moderated vote Creation of uk.telecom.moderated PASSES 82:57 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Voting closed at Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:59:59 BST Proponent: peter@gradwell.com (Peter Gradwell) Votetaker: af@contract.co.uk (Alan Fleming) - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: uk.net.news.announce, uk.net.news.config, uk.telecom - ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Results: The results follow below in the following order: 1) Result 2) Particulars of the Vote 3) Votetakers comments 4) Voting and Appeal guidelines 5) Rationale & Charter PROPOSAL - Creation of uk.telecom.moderated YES = 82 NO = 57 ABSTAIN = 6 YES beat NO by a majority of 25 votes. This is more than the +12 majority needed for the proposal to succeed. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Particulars of the Vote YES VOTES Anthony R. Gold tgold ;panix !moc Alan Belbin durness ;netcomuk.co !ku Alasdair Baxter alasdair ;dram.demon.co !ku Alex Blamey alexnn2 ;blamey.freeserve.co !ku Alex Holden votes ;alexh.clara.co !ku Alexander Hemsley zandy ;hemsley.demon.co !ku Andrew Le Prevost andrew ;leprevost !ten Andrew Tringham telecom ;tringham.demon.co !ku Andrew Wineberg A.Wineberg ;btinternet !moc Anthony Naggs amn ;ubik.demon.co !ku Arthur Pye apye ;arthurpye.demon.co !ku Barry Oakley beo ;stepup.demon.co !ku Barry Salter barrykas ;salterg.demon.co !ku Brian J. Forster Brian ;bjforster.force9.co !ku Brian White brian.white ;pobox !moc Chris Boots chris ;boots.demon.co !ku Chris Hunter chris-h ;monrepos.demon.co !ku Chris Sumner uktmvote ;cpsumner.freeserve.co !ku Chris Townley chris ;townleyc.demon.co !ku Colin Price colin ;frogmore6.demon.co !ku David Floyd david ;keynsham.demon.co !ku David Habanec xchat ;iname !moc David Marsh drmarsh ;bigfoot !moc David Thornton david ;davidthornton !moc Denis McMahon denis ;pickaxe.demon.co !ku Dominic Young dominic.young ;lineone !ten Don Carter don ;dc-train.demon.co !ku Douglas Lewins abp ;orcc.demon.co !ku Dragan Cvetkovic draganc ;soc.plym.ac !ku Frank Bowles Frank.Bowles ;poboxes !moc Gareth Davies garethd ;dial.pipex !moc Geoff Clare gwc ;unisoft !moc Gerard Alan Latham Gerard ;galatham.demon.co !ku Graham Wilson graham ;dircon.co !ku Grant Mason grant ;mason1.freeserve.co !ku Harfynn Teuport teuport ;hotmail !moc Henry Helliwell mort ;toth.org !ku Ian Peattie ian ;john-richard.co !ku Ian Sharp cfv ;sharpip.demon.co !ku James Bellaire bellaire ;tk !moc James Bryant James.Bryant ;marconicomms !moc James Sears james ;acornusers !gro Jane Anna Langley A.Langley ;uel.ac !ku John A. Green u04jag.abdn ;zetnet.co !ku John B Stock jbstock ;btinternet !moc John C Prentice 9608226p ;udcf.gla.ac !ku John C. Elliott herbie ;tesco !ten John E Wynn john ;vetchfield.win-uk !ten John Reid John.Reid ;jazza.demon.co !ku Joseph Otten joe.otten ;virgin !ten Julie Brandon julie-vote ;merp.demon.co !ku Keith Brazington keith ;quetz.demon.co !ku Kevin Andreoli kevin.andreoli ;btinternet !moc Mark Killingback cuba ;globalnet.co !ku Markus G. Kltzer mgk ;gmx.at Martin G Bridges bridgesm ;logica !moc Michael Parry michael ;cavrdg.demon.co !ku Mike Alexander alexanm ;it.moray.gov !ku Natthew Thomson matthewt ;fairplay.co !ku neil p chue hong npch ;tardis.ed.ac !ku Nick Leverton leveret ;warren.demon.co !ku Peter Dent p-dent ;iboro.freeserve.co !ku Peter McMinn uktmvote ;lemoncurry.cix.co !ku Rajeev Gupte rajeev.gupte ;gecm !moc Robert McKinney sms-robert ;usa !ten Robert Wooley rob ;robert.woolley.easynet.co !ku Ross Beresford ross ;bryson.demon.co !ku Ross Younger wry20 ;cai.cam.ac !ku Sak Wathanasin sw ;nan.co !ku Seb Wills saw27 ;cam.ac !ku Simon Gardner 666 ;hack.powernet.co !ku Steve Dodd dirk ;loth.demon.co !ku Steve Peake puppet ;dial.pipex !moc Tim Clark T.Clark ;warwick.ac !ku Tim Jackson tim_jackson ;bigfoot !moc Tim Skinner tim ;palacecs.demon.co !ku Tobias Erle vote-uk ;kholdan.snafu !ed Tom Hughes tom ;compton !un Tom Joyce T.M.Joyce ;durham.ac !ku Tom Porter tom ;memories1.demon.co !ku Tony Game tgame ;netcomuk.co !ku Tony Wright tony ;yrl.co !ku NO Votes A. Lindsay uktmvote ;ananam.demon.co !ku Alan J Pitcher alan ;picarium.demon.co !ku Alasdair Allan x-static ;null !ten Alex Hardisty alex ;pqm-cons.demon.co !ku Charles Lindsey chl ;clw.cs.man.ac !ku Charlie Freckleton charlie ;genest.demon.co !ku Chris Davies chris ;roaima.demon.co !ku Christian Hansen chris ;hansenhome.demon.co !ku Conor O'Neill conor ;puddle.demon.co !ku Darren Wyn Rees merlin ;A470.demon.co !ku Dave G Smith dave ;pict.demon.co !ku Dave Mayall david.mayall ;ukonline.co !ku David Mahon dmahon ;amigo.demon.co !ku Dermot O'Riordan dermot ;oriordan.co !ku Doug Ritchie doug ;drpc.demon.co !ku Edward King eaking ;ulape.demon.co !ku Gareth Babb hick ;mojo !gro Howard Orgel Howard.Orgel ;orgels.demon.co !ku Ian Cox einstein ;enterprise !ten James Coupe james ;obeah.demon.co !ku jAmES Lawson chasm ;ccl4 !gro Jeff Taylor voter ;clearview.cix.co !ku Jim Ley jim ;jibbering !moc John Wright jsw22 ;rl.ac !ku Jon Plews jonplews ;dial.pipex !moc Karel Hladky khladky ;khdesign.demon.co !ku Keith Hood etlkeod ;etlxdmx.ericsson.se Maga Tweed magawiska ;softhome !ten Marc Cornelius cornelius ;vercor.demon.co !ku Martin Durkin martin.durkin ;ntc.nokia !moc Mike Clements mjc ;mchome.demon.co !ku Mike Henry mike ;tw2 !moc Nick Wynne nick ;beachyhd.demon.co !ku Paul Bolchover pb10003 ;cus.cam.ac !ku Paul Harrison valid.143.expires.990514 ;peharri.beon !ten Paul Martin pm ;zetnet !ten Peter Bruce news ;thule.demon.co !ku Peter Corlett abuse ;verrine.demon.co !ku Peter G. Strangman Peter ;adelheid.demon.co !ku Peter Ilieve peter ;aldie.co !ku Peter Moore peter.moore ;virgin !ten Peter Parry peter ;wppltd.demon.co !ku Peter Sumner peter ;sumnerp.demon.co !ku Rich Wood rich ;ruh-bath.swest.nhs !ku Richard Ashton richard ;corixia.demon.co !ku Richard Clayton richard ;turnpike !moc Richard Morris abuse ;the-pub.freeserve.co !ku Robert Felton swinny ;cix.co !ku Shane Matthews shane.matthews ;perseco.co !ku Simon Bonnick simon ;trimcase !moc Stephen Packer spacker ;iee !gro Steve Randall steve ;pqm-cons.demon.co !ku Steve Stacher zsnowman ;email !moc Stuart Millington phupp ;wormhole.demon.co !ku Sunil Sood news ;soods.freeserve.co !ku Vartan Narinian v.narinian ;ic.ac !ku William Boughton bill ;xencat.demon.co !ku ABSTENTIONS Andy Mabbett andy ;pigsonthewing.demon.co !ku Billyboy billyboy ;gto.net !mo Paul Womar Vote ;pwomar.demon.co !ku Peter Gradwell peter ;gradwell !moc Richard Kettlewell rjk ;greenend.org !ku Simon Gray simon ;star-one.org !ku REJECTED VOTES Gloria Clarke gloriac ;nortelnetworks !moc - - No name or address specified in message. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Votetakers Notes: Another big vote this, and I couldn't tell which way it would go until the end. Half a dozen people voted on both first and second CFV for some reason. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on behalf of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties. The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL: ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/usenet/news-info/news.answers/uk/voting The UKVoting web pages can be found at http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/ There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to uk.net.news.announce. Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control@usenet.org.uk. - -------------------------------------------------------------- PROPONENT'S SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION An expectedly heated discussion surrounded this request with the main topics being whether there was a need for the group. One argument was whether the group would be duplicating uk.telecom, thus fragmenting the discussion and rendering it's self useless. the second was whether the rationale (that we needed a moderated group to seperate the wheat from the chaffe), as valid, because traditional kill files were capable of performing the same job of filtering, with out the 'big brother' aspects of moderation. Examples were given of many other groups who had duplicate 'misc' and 'moderated' groups, and were countered by numerous examples of good kill-filing software. Those in the pro-moderation camp cited their inability to filter and also their desire to have 'upstream' filtering in place to save them the effort. There was minor debate about items such as cross posting and whether to moderate uk.telecom. The arguments re cross-posting were that it should be permitted, but not excessively. With respect to moderating uk.telecom (over creating uk.telecom.moderated), it was felt that this was not relevant to the discussion of the creation of uk.telecom.moderated. ================================================================= RATIONALE: uk.telecom.moderated uk.telecom has enjoyed a lively amount of traffic and high quality discussion since its founding. Within the past number of months the group has attracted a large amount of spam, off-topic and malicious posts and flooding attacks. Whilst recent developments have meant that the level of noise has reduced significantly, the proponent still feels that moderation is of benefit to the group in order to maintain the signal level. The discussion of the first RFD has indicated that current software may be capable of dealing with such abuse, however, not everyone uses, nor is able to use such software, and indeed, not everyone wants to spend time maintaining a kill file - why should every reader have to do something that moderators could do for all? The creation of uk.telecom.moderated may seem to render uk.telecom redundant. However, at this stage it is suggested that uk.telecom ought to be left, and that a further decision should be made 3 months after the creation of uk.telecom.moderated. The proponent does not wish to moderate uk.telecom because he feels that uk.telecom may be better dealt with by renaming, or by having a charter defined and that with respect to his comment below (re comp.lang.perl.*), he feels that a moderated group is required for 'high signal level' discussion. The proponent notes the comp.lang.perl.* news groups, where by there exists a high signal to noise ratio in comp.lang.perl.moderated and a high level of talk in comp.lang.perl.misc. ================================================================= CHARTER: uk.telecom.moderated uk.telecom.moderated is a group that operates in the spirit of the original uk.telecom group. While some off-topic discussions may prove valuable, the following topics should be focused on: non-mobile uk telecom devices and systems; uk telecom numbering schemes; uk telecom providers; Short press releases / announcements with pointers to urls; Telecom services currently offered in the uk (e.g. ISDN, Home Highway). Telecom services which may in future be offered in the uk (e.g. Cable modems) but only in the context of their telephony service (i.e. not internet service). Cordless telephony devices, of limited range, such as DECT based devices. The following are not on topic: mobile uk telecom devices, systems and providers; Official postings by members of the uk telephony providers and regulators are most welcome; The group shall not accept any binary postings, but references to ftp or http sites are welcome; Posts must be made in plain text format (i.e. Not HTML or MIME). Advertising is not allowed, except in signatures, which should comply with the appropriate standards. Cross posting: a maximum additional 2 news groups is permitted, but with the exception of administrative messages cross posts within the uk hierachy are expressly not permitted. As the uk.telecom mini-FAQ says: "If you talk sense about telecoms you will not go far wrong". END CHARTER. ================================================================= MODERATOR INFO: uk.telecom.moderated The group shall accept all posts which have passed moderation on the following basis: Each message must contain, either as a reply-to or from header one routeable email address by which the moderators may contact the poster. This email address must be given in a form that the moderators could decode/manipulate/reform so that the moderators could contact the poster. All postings from addresses on a `white list' of established posters will be posted to the group automatically. All postings from addresses on a `black list' will be rejected automatically. All other posts shall go to human moderators. They may then be approved, and thus posted. Or rejected on one of the following grounds: off topic - the message is not relevant to uk telecom and should be discussed elsewhere. If possible, the moderators will provide a suggestion; cross post - the message has been excessively cross posted; charter - the message violates some other rule in the charter; harassing - the message is of a harrasing nature and thus not suitable; Where possible an explanation for all rejected posts shall be sent to the author of the rejected post; An automatic confirmation that the post is being considered for inclusion shall be sent in response to every post considered by the moderators. Readers will be able to disable this confirmation. The moderators will take submissions at submit@uk-telecom.org.uk A member may join the white list if they post 10 on topic articles to the news group and they have not been black-listed in the previous 3 months, or at the moderators discretion. A member will join the blacklist, or be removed from the white list in the following circumstances: The person who has seriously or consistently violated the group's charter. In the event of serious abuse directed against the moderator, If a poster forges newsgroup headers or gives a fake id. In such a case, the moderator must immediately send the offender and the "moderation board" a notice outlining the reason for this action. A person disciplined in this manner has the right to demand that the moderator posts a copy of this notice to the newsgroup for comment by other subscribers. In the event of there being no remaining moderators a request to remove the group from usenet will be generated - due to the requirements of Usenet (this is not a choice that the moderators have an alternative for). Full details of the moderation procedure, including contact details shall be available at http://www.uk-telecom.org.uk/ and posted to the group monthly. PROCEDURE FOR DEALING WITH COMPLAINTS: Grievances should first be taken up with the moderator list by email at moderators@uk-telecom.org.uk. If the issue is not resolved to the person's satisfaction they can bring the issue up to the "moderation board", to whom the moderators are responsible, after the moderators are given sufficient time to resolve the issue (at least 3 days, due to mail accessibility and propagation delay issues). The moderators will be responsible to a "moderation board". This group acts as an oversight committee. They have no official power, but are rather a publicly accessible mailing list where people can air their grievances. It is to be understood that bringing a post to this list is accepting the greater propagation of the more public list. If the "moderation board" decide that a moderator is indeed abusing their power he will be removed from the list of moderators or censured at their discretion. The "moderation board" may be contacted via email to board@uk-telecom.org.uk. You may join by sending an email to board-subscribe@uk-telecom.org.uk. END MODERATOR INFO. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Fleming af@contract.co.uk