26 Jan 2000: Charter changes for various groups in uk.local.*

From: alan@whirlnet.co.uk (Alan Ford)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:40:33 GMT
Subject: RESULTS: Charter Changes for various groups in uk.local.* ALL FAIL
Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.local.lothians,uk.local.north-wales,uk.local.nw-england,uk.local.south-wales



Charter Changes of various groups in uk.local.* -- ALL FAIL :
    uk.local.lothians FAILS 19:15:9
 uk.local.north-wales FAILS 24:14:5
  uk.local.nw-england FAILS 23:14:6
 uk.local.south-wales FAILS 23:14:6

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Voting began Wednesday 29 December 1999
Voting closed at 23:59:59 GMT, Friday 21 January 2000

Proponant: andy@pigsonthewing.demon.co.uk (Andy Mabbett)
Votetaker: alan@whirlnet.co.uk (Alan Ford)

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These results have been posted to:
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The Rationale, Summary of Discussion, and Proposal follow the main 
results for informational purposes.

uk.local.south-wales ----------\
uk.local.nw-england -------\   |
uk.local.north-wales --\   |   |
uk.local.lothians -\   |   |   |
                   |   |   |   |
             YES  19  24  23  23
              NO  15  14  14  14
         ABSTAIN   9   5   6   6
           TOTAL  43  43  43  43
    YES MAJORITY   4  10   9   9

There were a total of 43 valid votes, and no invalid votes. For all 
groups YES narrowly beat NO, but none by the required majority of 12. 
Therefore the proposed charter changes fail for all groups.

There will be a five day discussion period after these results have 
been posted before the group is created to allow for any allegations 
of irregularities to be raised.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


This vote took a long time to come around, but it was completed without
any problems. And nobody made a mess of their ballot paper, which made
my life easier ;-)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


                                 uk.local.south-wales ----------\
                                 uk.local.nw-england -------\   |
                                 uk.local.north-wales --\   |   |
                                 uk.local.lothians -\   |   |   |
                                                    |   |   |   |
Aidan Folkes      aidan@celestis@freeserve@OC@UK    N   N   N   N
Alan Fleming      af@contract@OC@UK                 Y   Y   Y   Y
Alex Dawson       alex@dawson@uea@ac@UK             N   N   Y   N
Alex Holden       votes@alexh@clara@OC@UK           Y   Y   Y   Y
Andy Mabbett      andy@pigsonthewing@demon@OC@UK    Y   Y   Y   Y
Andy Roberts      andyrobts@zetnet@OC@UK            A   Y   A   Y
Barry Salter      ukvotes@salterg@demon@OC@UK       Y   Y   Y   Y
Bill              bill@billybubbles@demon@OC@UK     N   N   N   N
Bryan K           bryank@btinternet@OCm             A   Y   A   Y
Charles Lindsey   chl@clw@cs@man@ac@UK              N   N   N   N
Chris Bannister   cj@clues@OCm                      Y   Y   Y   Y
Chris Livsey      cjl@ocrixon@demon@OC@UK           Y   Y   Y   Y
Darren Griffin    griffind@capital@UK@OCm           A   Y   A   A
Dave Clapham      Dave@community-spirit@demon@OC@UK N   N   N   N
Dave Thorn        davet@tw2@OCm                     A   A   A   Y
David D Miller    ddmiller@compuserve@OCm           Y   Y   Y   Y
David Jackson     david@middleroom@demon@OC@UK      A   A   Y   A
Duncan Dewar      duncan@bute@org@UK                Y   Y   Y   Y
Ian Kitching      systimk@bridge@anglia@ac@UK       Y   Y   Y   Y
Jezza             jezza@hotwells@freeserve@OC@UK    Y   Y   Y   Y
Jim Hill          uklocal-charters@jhc@org@UK       Y   Y   Y   Y
Joe Higman        Joe@higco@freeserve@OC@UK         A   A   A   A
Jon Thomson       jon@thomson2273@freeserve@OC@UK   Y   Y   Y   A
Karl Stephen      etav07@holyrood@hw@ac@UK          Y   Y   Y   Y
Lyn David Thomas  lyn@stuffing@demon@OC@UK          Y   Y   Y   Y
Mike Fleming      mike@tauzero@OC@UK                Y   Y   Y   Y
Nick Regan        nick@nregan@OC@UK                 N   N   N   N
Paul C@ Dickie    pcd@bozzie@f9@OC@UK               N   N   N   N
Peter Alfredsen   peteralf@softhome@net             Y   Y   Y   Y
Peter Parry       Peter@wppltd@demon@OC@UK          N   N   N   N
Philip Powell     philip@blencathra@demon@OC@UK     Y   Y   Y   Y
Richard Clayton   richard@turnpike@OCm              N   N   N   N
Richard Letts     richard-vote@illuin@org           A   A   A   A
robbie            robbie@arrakis@nu                 N   N   N   N
ScottPA           scottpa@bigfoot@OCm               A   Y   Y   Y
simon gray        simon@star-one@org@UK             Y   Y   Y   Y
Simon Lamont      otto@gizmo1@demon@OC@UK           A   A   Y   A
Steve Wright      steve@wrightnet@demon@OC@UK       Y   Y   Y   Y
Stuart Baldwin    stuart@boxatrix@demon@OC@UK       N   N   N   N
T Lee             tfl@psp@OC@UK                     N   N   N   N
Tez Burke         burkesworks@lineone@net           N   N   N   N
tobias erle       vote-uk@kholdan@snafu@de          N   Y   N   Y
Tony Towers       tony@cats@tele2@OC@UK             N   N   N   N

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The committee have resolutely refused to apply the recent RFD to amend
uk.local.* charters, despite this hierarchies largest ever vote, with
the largest ever majority, of 170:12 (results announced as:

        Message-ID: <result-uk.local-990306-225951@usenet.org.uk>
        Date: 6 Mar 1999 23:00:55 -0000 )

to the charters for five newsgroups:


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Aside from the erroneous inclusion of uk.local.scot-highlands (which has
now been excluded from this CFV by common consent) the majority of the
debate was around the issue of whether or not the four group concerned
"allow advertising" (the stipulation in the original RFD which this RFD
seeks to apply correctly).

One or more posters appeared to confuse "advertising" with "commercial
advertising"; (the majority of posts to this effect came from one
person, who erroneously believed that "The original RFD as I saw it was
aimed against commercial advertising") clearly, group which prohibit
only the latter still allow other forms of advertising. The original RFD
*deliberately* did not distinguish between the two. In each of the
groups where "commercial" advertising is restricted or prohibited, some
other form of advertising is allowed. Since (some) advertising is
allowed, the disputed paragraph applies: the limited (e.g. non-
commercial) advertising /which is allowed/ in those groups must still be
relevant to any other groups to which it is cross- posted.

To clarify the proposal, here are the relevant parts  of the four charters:


        Commercial advertising is expressly forbidden. Any Commercial
        references in a signature file must not exceed 4 lines and must
        not be the purpose of the post.

Since only /commercial/ advertising is banned, it follows that other
forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly applies to this charter.


        Commercial advertising is unwelcome, although a company
        reference in a signature not exceeding four lines is acceptable.

        Announcements of community events or other information that is
        of direct relevance to the people of North Wales are welcome.

Since only /commercial/ advertising is "unwelcome" (note: not "banned"),
it follows that other forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly
applies to this charter.


        uk.local.nw-england is not intended to provide a channel for

        Modest statements of business interests in signatures attached
        to articles that conform to the spirit of this charter are

This wording is vague, it is not clear that advertising is prohibited,
it follows that some advertising may be allowed; the original RFD
clearly applies to this charter.


        Commercial advertising is un-welcome, although a company
        reference in a signature not exceeding four lines is acceptable.

Since only /commercial/ advertising is "unwelcome" (note: not "banned"),
it follows that other forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly
applies to this charter.

Also, acting- Control made the claim that it was left to Control (sic)
to determine the meaning of "advertising". There is no such provision
in the guidelines.

One other matter concerned the provision of a Welsh translation of the
wording involved, for uk.local.north-wales and uk.local.south-wales;
clearly, since this RFD seeks to apply the original RFD correctly, such
a transition will again be used. acting- Control has stated that such a
translation is already available.

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The disputed paragraph:

        Note that the advertising of widely-available goods or services
        is *not* relevant in this context, and that most uk.local.*
        groups have restrictions on advertising, or prohibit it. Cross-
        posted adverts, where allowed, must meet the requirements of the
        charters of *all* groups involved.

will be added to the charters for the newsgroups:


immediately below the paragraph limiting cross-posting, as per the vote
referred to above.

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This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting.
UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on CFVs
in the uk hierarchy.  The rules under which this vote is taken are
posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the
following URL:

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to
uk.net.news.announce.  Allegations of irregularity should be sent to

The UKVoting web pages can be found at


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Alan Ford <alan@whirlnet.co.uk> <a.ford@ukvoting.org.uk>
UKVoting Votetaker

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