Path: oaktree.co.uk!ewrotcd!feed-ewrotcd!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: alan@whirlnet.co.uk (Alan Ford) Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.local.lothians,uk.local.north-wales,uk.local.nw-england,uk.local.south-wales Subject: RESULTS: Charter Changes for various groups in uk.local.* ALL FAIL Followup-To: uk.net.news.config Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:40:33 GMT Sender: control@clw.cs.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) Approved: Charles Lindsey acting as control Message-ID: <-uk.local.star.ads-Foy37y.JnF@clw.cs.man.ac.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 948906797 mail2news:4007 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!serenity.mcc.ac.uk!nessie.mcc.ac.uk!clw.cs.man.ac.uk Lines: 271 Xref: oaktree.co.uk uk.net.news.announce:1649 uk.net.news.config:82104 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- RESULT OF CALL FOR VOTES Charter Changes of various groups in uk.local.* -- ALL FAIL : uk.local.lothians FAILS 19:15:9 uk.local.north-wales FAILS 24:14:5 uk.local.nw-england FAILS 23:14:6 uk.local.south-wales FAILS 23:14:6 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Voting began Wednesday 29 December 1999 Voting closed at 23:59:59 GMT, Friday 21 January 2000 Proponant: andy@pigsonthewing.demon.co.uk (Andy Mabbett) Votetaker: alan@whirlnet.co.uk (Alan Ford) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISTRIBUTION: These results have been posted to: uk.net.news.announce uk.net.news.config uk.local.lothians uk.local.north-wales uk.local.nw-england uk.local.south-wales - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VOTING SUMMARY: The Rationale, Summary of Discussion, and Proposal follow the main results for informational purposes. uk.local.south-wales ----------\ uk.local.nw-england -------\ | uk.local.north-wales --\ | | uk.local.lothians -\ | | | | | | | YES 19 24 23 23 NO 15 14 14 14 ABSTAIN 9 5 6 6 TOTAL 43 43 43 43 YES MAJORITY 4 10 9 9 There were a total of 43 valid votes, and no invalid votes. For all groups YES narrowly beat NO, but none by the required majority of 12. Therefore the proposed charter changes fail for all groups. There will be a five day discussion period after these results have been posted before the group is created to allow for any allegations of irregularities to be raised. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VOTETAKER'S COMMENTS: This vote took a long time to come around, but it was completed without any problems. And nobody made a mess of their ballot paper, which made my life easier ;-) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THE RESULTS IN FULL: uk.local.south-wales ----------\ uk.local.nw-england -------\ | uk.local.north-wales --\ | | uk.local.lothians -\ | | | | | | | Aidan Folkes aidan@celestis@freeserve@OC@UK N N N N Alan Fleming af@contract@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Alex Dawson alex@dawson@uea@ac@UK N N Y N Alex Holden votes@alexh@clara@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Andy Roberts andyrobts@zetnet@OC@UK A Y A Y Barry Salter ukvotes@salterg@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Bill bill@billybubbles@demon@OC@UK N N N N Bryan K bryank@btinternet@OCm A Y A Y Charles Lindsey chl@clw@cs@man@ac@UK N N N N Chris Bannister cj@clues@OCm Y Y Y Y Chris Livsey cjl@ocrixon@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Darren Griffin griffind@capital@UK@OCm A Y A A Dave Clapham Dave@community-spirit@demon@OC@UK N N N N Dave Thorn davet@tw2@OCm A A A Y David D Miller ddmiller@compuserve@OCm Y Y Y Y David Jackson david@middleroom@demon@OC@UK A A Y A Duncan Dewar duncan@bute@org@UK Y Y Y Y Ian Kitching systimk@bridge@anglia@ac@UK Y Y Y Y Jezza jezza@hotwells@freeserve@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Jim Hill uklocal-charters@jhc@org@UK Y Y Y Y Joe Higman Joe@higco@freeserve@OC@UK A A A A Jon Thomson jon@thomson2273@freeserve@OC@UK Y Y Y A Karl Stephen etav07@holyrood@hw@ac@UK Y Y Y Y Lyn David Thomas lyn@stuffing@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Mike Fleming mike@tauzero@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Nick Regan nick@nregan@OC@UK N N N N Paul C@ Dickie pcd@bozzie@f9@OC@UK N N N N Peter Alfredsen peteralf@softhome@net Y Y Y Y Peter Parry Peter@wppltd@demon@OC@UK N N N N Philip Powell philip@blencathra@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Richard Clayton richard@turnpike@OCm N N N N Richard Letts richard-vote@illuin@org A A A A robbie robbie@arrakis@nu N N N N ScottPA scottpa@bigfoot@OCm A Y Y Y simon gray simon@star-one@org@UK Y Y Y Y Simon Lamont otto@gizmo1@demon@OC@UK A A Y A Steve Wright steve@wrightnet@demon@OC@UK Y Y Y Y Stuart Baldwin stuart@boxatrix@demon@OC@UK N N N N T Lee tfl@psp@OC@UK N N N N Tez Burke burkesworks@lineone@net N N N N tobias erle vote-uk@kholdan@snafu@de N Y N Y Tony Towers tony@cats@tele2@OC@UK N N N N - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PROPONENT'S RATIONALE: The committee have resolutely refused to apply the recent RFD to amend uk.local.* charters, despite this hierarchies largest ever vote, with the largest ever majority, of 170:12 (results announced as: Message-ID: [...] Date: 6 Mar 1999 23:00:55 -0000 ) to the charters for five newsgroups: uk.local.lothians uk.local.north-wales uk.local.nw-england uk.local.south-wales - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PROPONENT'S SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION: Aside from the erroneous inclusion of uk.local.scot-highlands (which has now been excluded from this CFV by common consent) the majority of the debate was around the issue of whether or not the four group concerned "allow advertising" (the stipulation in the original RFD which this RFD seeks to apply correctly). One or more posters appeared to confuse "advertising" with "commercial advertising"; (the majority of posts to this effect came from one person, who erroneously believed that "The original RFD as I saw it was aimed against commercial advertising") clearly, group which prohibit only the latter still allow other forms of advertising. The original RFD *deliberately* did not distinguish between the two. In each of the groups where "commercial" advertising is restricted or prohibited, some other form of advertising is allowed. Since (some) advertising is allowed, the disputed paragraph applies: the limited (e.g. non- commercial) advertising /which is allowed/ in those groups must still be relevant to any other groups to which it is cross- posted. To clarify the proposal, here are the relevant parts of the four charters: uk.local.lothians Commercial advertising is expressly forbidden. Any Commercial references in a signature file must not exceed 4 lines and must not be the purpose of the post. Since only /commercial/ advertising is banned, it follows that other forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly applies to this charter. uk.local.north-wales Commercial advertising is unwelcome, although a company reference in a signature not exceeding four lines is acceptable. Announcements of community events or other information that is of direct relevance to the people of North Wales are welcome. Since only /commercial/ advertising is "unwelcome" (note: not "banned"), it follows that other forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly applies to this charter. uk.local.nw-england uk.local.nw-england is not intended to provide a channel for advertising. Modest statements of business interests in signatures attached to articles that conform to the spirit of this charter are acceptable. This wording is vague, it is not clear that advertising is prohibited, it follows that some advertising may be allowed; the original RFD clearly applies to this charter. uk.local.south-wales Commercial advertising is un-welcome, although a company reference in a signature not exceeding four lines is acceptable. Since only /commercial/ advertising is "unwelcome" (note: not "banned"), it follows that other forms are allowed; the original RFD clearly applies to this charter. Also, acting- Control made the claim that it was left to Control (sic) to determine the meaning of "advertising". There is no such provision in the guidelines. One other matter concerned the provision of a Welsh translation of the wording involved, for uk.local.north-wales and uk.local.south-wales; clearly, since this RFD seeks to apply the original RFD correctly, such a transition will again be used. acting- Control has stated that such a translation is already available. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PROPOSAL: The disputed paragraph: Note that the advertising of widely-available goods or services is *not* relevant in this context, and that most uk.local.* groups have restrictions on advertising, or prohibit it. Cross- posted adverts, where allowed, must meet the requirements of the charters of *all* groups involved. will be added to the charters for the newsgroups: uk.local.lothians uk.local.north-wales uk.local.nw-england uk.local.south-wales immediately below the paragraph limiting cross-posting, as per the vote referred to above. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on CFVs in the uk hierarchy. The rules under which this vote is taken are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL: ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/usenet/news-info/news.answers/uk/voting There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to uk.net.news.announce. Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control@usenet.org.uk. The UKVoting web pages can be found at http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOI75QmOfGXkh8vHZAQG4jQP/dMDZ1HHhivdgbFAhbggqNjfokR4AtfCN McvP2Th+W/KkOFA8+r5Yb/R/onkgI4bFH3EsVVDAAEUqjj+2rL+M8VVb9niatwuT hAfXraiTub9ozidC+GTRIQKu/sirPqibWgUWiI3Kujr0b+ruMZwLh5RhSVsnKdwr dhmW0WbeGNw= =KBTC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Alan Ford UKVoting Votetaker