Path: sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!control From: avgfv@jhc.org.uk (Jim Hill) Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.net.news.management,uk.politics.misc Subject: RESULTS: Amend voting guidelines (fraudulent votes, etc.) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:01:35 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 766 Approved: control@usenet.org.uk (Charles Lindsey as Deputy Control) Message-ID: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1040054495 21643 10.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2002 16:01:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:01:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from curlew.cs.man.ac.uk ([130.88.13.7]) by news.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18NxgU-0005cw-00 for mail2news@news.news.demon.net; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:01:34 +0000 X-Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk ([194.66.22.208] helo=clw.cs.man.ac.uk) by curlew.cs.man.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18MtQK-0009lQ-00 for mail2news@news.news.demon.net; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:16:58 +0000 X-Received: (from control@localhost) by clw.cs.man.ac.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA22248 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:31:04 GMT X-Path: clw.cs.man.ac.uk!not-for-mail X-Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.net.news.management,uk.politics.misc X-Followup-To: uk.net.news.management X-Lines: 765 X-Apparently-To: mail2news@news.news.demon.net X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18MtQK-0009lQ-00*fpNiQU2aXpo* Xref: sn-us uk.net.news.announce:3085 uk.net.news.config:152052 uk.net.news.management:44384 uk.politics.misc:899633 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- RESULT OF CALL FOR VOTES Amend voting guidelines (fraudulent votes, etc.) Amendment 1: Standard of proof : Status Quo Amendment 2: 'how voted' influence : Fails 18:38 Amendment 3: Replacement for 'he' : Status Quo Amendment 4: Remove 'if available' : Passes 32:18 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Voting opened: Wednesday 16 October 2002 Voting closed: Sunday 3rd November 2002 Proponent: Neil Fernandez Votetaker: Jim Hill - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISTRIBUTION These results have been posted to: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config, uk.net.news.management,uk.politics.misc =========================================================================== RESULTS IN DETAIL Amendment 1: STANDARD OF PROOF REQUIRED FOR A VOTE TO BE DISALLOWED Voters were asked to rank four options: Option A: "beyond reasonable doubt" Option B: "on the balance of probabilities" Option C: Status quo - implement none of the options Option D: Re-open discussion. A total of 63 valid votes were cast plus 3 abstentions. STAGE ONE: Status Quo was preferred to Option A by 26 votes (43-17) Status Quo was preferred to Option B by 22 votes (41-19) Status Quo was preferred to Option D by 40 votes (50-10) No options were preferred to Status Quo by the minimum requirement of at least 12 votes so Status Quo prevails and the amendment fails. For completeness only, the full Condorcet tables are included below. Table 1 - Absolute Figures (Raw Preferences Grid) A B C D A [n/a] [ 16] [ 17] [ 30] 'beyond reasonable doubt' B [ 32] [n/a] [ 19] [ 30] 'balance of probabilities' C [ 43] [ 41] [n/a] [ 50] SQ D [ 30] [ 29] [ 10] [n/a] ROD In this grid, each number represents the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's row to the option appropriate to the number's column. For example, 32 voters preferred option B to option A and 16 voters preferred option A to option B. Table 2 - Relative Figures (Opposite Comparison Grid) A B C D A [n/a] [-16] [-26] [ 0] 'beyond reasonable doubt' B [ 16] [n/a] [-22] [ 1] 'balance of probabilities' C [ 26] [ 22] [n/a] [ 40] SQ D [ 0] [ -1] [-40] [n/a] ROD In this grid, each number represents the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's row to the option appropriate to the number's column less the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's column to the option appropriate to the number's row. For example, 26 more people preferred Option C to Option A than preferred A to C, and 16 more people preferred Option B to Option A than preferred A to B. Voter preferences for amendment 1. A B C D 4 3 1 2 {R} - Org {R} Semolina 4 1 2 3 Alan Fleming - Org Af Etrigan 3 2 1 4 Alan LeHun - Claracouk Ukvote Lehun a a a a Andrew Hartley - Freeservecouk News Eastupham 4 1 2 3 Anthony R Gold - Com Tgold Panix 0 0 0 1 Barry Dorrans - Org Barryd Idunno 4 3 1 2 Bill Muskett - Orguk Billn Musketts 3 2 1 4 Brett Paul Dunbar - Demoncouk Brett Dimetrodon 4 1 2 3 Brian White - Com Brian White Pobox 3 4 1 2 Charles Bryant - Demoncouk Vguide Vote Ch Chch 2 3 1 4 Charles Lindsey - Csmanacuk Chl Clw 3 4 1 2 Chris Croughton - Org Chris Keristor 1 1 3 2 Clive Feather - Net Clive Demon 2 1 4 3 Clive Martin - Demoncouk Clive Cmartin 3 2 1 4 Clive R Robertson - Orguk Cliver Clive 4 3 1 2 Dave - Demoncompanyuk Dave Community-Spirit 1 4 2 3 Dave Johnson - Com Requiem Freeuk 4 3 1 2 Dave Mason - Orguk Avgfv Sarnie 4 3 1 2 Dave Mayall - Couk David Mayall Ukonline 3 1 2 4 David Damerell - Greenendorguk Damerell Chiark 4 3 1 2 David Mahon - Couk Dmahon_Vote_Avgfv Amigo 3 3 2 1 Denis McMahon - Net {Denisrt} Pickaxe 0 0 1 2 DG - Demoncouk Dickg Dickalba 3 3 1 2 Don Aitken - Com Donaitken Freeuk a a a a Eddie Bernard - Greatxscapenet Usenet Ebernard 4 3 1 2 Fred Barber - Demoncouk Fredb Frolix8 4 2 1 3 gizbon - Couk Gizbon Higs 3 2 1 4 Glenys Pople - Demoncouk Gkp Howfen 0 0 1 2 Iain Bowen - Alaricorguk Alaric Alaric 2 2 1 1 James Coupe - Orguk James Zephyr 2 1 0 3 James Farrar - Couk Londonstatto Yahoo 1 2 3 4 JBM - Edu Jpb8 Duke 4 3 1 1 Jeffrey Goldberg - Org Jeffrey Goldmark 1 2 3 4 Jezza - Freeservecouk Jezza Hotwells 4 1 2 3 Jim Riley - Com Jimrtex Pipeline 3 2 1 4 John Bean - Org News Waterfoot 2 1 3 4 John Blundell - Com Jcbnews001 Bigfoot 1 0 3 2 Jon Thomson - Warwickacuk Mawdl Csv 1 3 4 2 Jonathan Wheeler - Acuk J F Wheeler Rl 2 1 3 4 Kevin Andreoli - Couk Kevin Andreoli 1 0 0 0 kqr - Com Kqr2D2 Btopenworld 1 3 4 2 Lt Cmdr Jim - Org Jim Us-Lot 2 2 1 3 Mark Tyndall - Acuk Mrt102 York 3 2 1 4 Mike Fleming - Couk Mike Tauzero 1 2 3 0 Mike Tullett - Com Mike Tullett1 Ntlworld 4 3 1 2 Molly Mockford - Claracouk Molly Mockfords 1 2 1 3 Neil Ellwood - Couk Cne Netmatters 1 2 3 4 Neil Fernandez - Demoncouk Ncf Borve 0 3 1 2 Nigel Ashton - Demoncouk Nigel Nigelashton 0 0 1 2 Paul Carpenter - Demoncouk Paul Pcserv 1 1 1 2 Peter Munn - Demoncouk Pmunnsub Pearce-Neptune 2 3 1 4 Peter Robinson - Net Pmrobinson Gmx 3 2 1 4 Peter Smyth - Net Psmyth Ukf 4 3 1 2 Phil Todd - 001 Boing 127 4 3 1 2 Philip Powell - Orguk Philip Blencathra 3 3 1 2 Richard Clayton - Com Richard Highwayman 4 3 1 2 Richard Kennaway - Ueaacuk Jrk Sys 3 3 1 2 Richard Kettlewell - Greenendorguk Richard+Avgfv Sfere 0 0 1 0 Ron Morgan - Org Mysteron Ccl4 0 0 1 0 Roy Stilling - Orguk Rpjs Kalevala a a a a Spider - Ca Dipseydoodle Shaw 1 2 3 4 Steve Firth - Couk Abuse Malloc 1 2 4 3 the kat - Com Katnews Ntlworld 4 3 1 2 Thomas Lee - Couk Tfl Psp 2 1 4 3 Tim Forcer - Sotonacuk Tmf Ecs 0 0 1 0 Tony Towers - Tele2Couk Tony Cats - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- AMENDMENT 2: HOW A VOTER HAS VOTED NOT TO HAVE ANY INFLUENCE OVER WHETHER THEIR VOTE IS ALLOWED OR DISALLOWED 18 votes in favour 38 votes against 10 abstentions Amendment 2 fails because more votes were cast against than in favour. For voter details, see column (2) in the Full Voter Listing below. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- AMENDMENT 3: REPLACEMENT OF THE WORD 'HE' WITH A TERM APPLICABLE TO ALL VOTE-TAKERS WHETHER FEMALE OR MALE Voters were asked to rank six options: Option P: Change "He" to "He or she" Option Q: Change "He" to "They" Option R: Change "He" to "The votetaker" Option S: Change "He" to "S/He" Option T: Status quo - implement none of the options Option U: Re-open discussion. A total of 62 valid votes were cast plus 4 abstentions. STAGE ONE: Status Quo was preferred to Option P by 12 votes (36-24) Status Quo was preferred to Option Q by 6 votes (33-27) Option R was preferred to Status Quo by 9 votes (35-26) Status Quo was preferred to Option S by 21 votes (40-19) Status Quo was preferred to Option U by 25 votes (41-16) No options were preferred to Status Quo by the minimum requirement of at least 12 votes so Status Quo prevails and the amendment fails. For completeness only, the full Condorcet tables are included below. Table 1 - Absolute Figures (Raw Preferences Grid) P Q R S T U P [n/a] [ 15] [ 7] [ 36] [ 24] [ 31] 'he or she' Q [ 28] [n/a] [ 18] [ 38] [ 27] [ 36] 'they' R [ 43] [ 34] [n/a] [ 47] [ 35] [ 42] 'the votetaker' S [ 6] [ 7] [ 2] [n/a] [ 19] [ 28] 'S/He' T [ 36] [ 33] [ 26] [ 40] [n/a] [ 41] SQ U [ 23] [ 18] [ 16] [ 24] [ 16] [n/a] ROD In this grid, each number represents the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's row to the option appropriate to the number's column. For example, 36 people preferred option T to option P and 24 people preferred option T to option P. Table 2 - Relative Figures (Opposite Comparison Grid) P Q R S T U P [n/a] [-13] [-36] [ 30] [-12] [ 8] 'he or she' Q [ 13] [n/a] [-16] [ 31] [ -6] [ 18] 'they' R [ 36] [ 16] [n/a] [ 45] [ 9] [ 26] 'the votetaker' S [-30] [-31] [-45] [n/a] [-21] [ 4] 'S/He' T [ 12] [ 6] [ -9] [ 21] [n/a] [ 25] SQ U [ -8] [-18] [-26] [ -4] [-25] [n/a] ROD In this grid, each number represents the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's row to the option appropriate to the number's column less the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's column to the option appropriate to the number's row. For example, 36 more people preferred Option R to Option P than preferred P to R, and 12 more people preferred Option T to Option P than preferred P to T. Voter preferences for amendment 3. P Q R S T U 0 0 0 0 1 2 {R} - Org {R} Semolina 0 0 1 0 0 0 Alan Fleming - Org Af Etrigan a a a a a a Alan LeHun - Claracouk Ukvote Lehun 5 2 1 3 4 4 Andrew Hartley - Freeservecouk News Eastupham 6 6 6 6 1 2 Anthony R Gold - Com Tgold Panix 0 0 0 0 1 0 Barry Dorrans - Org Barryd Idunno a a a a a a Bill Muskett - Orguk Billn Musketts 2 3 1 4 5 6 Brett Paul Dunbar - Demoncouk Brett Dimetrodon 3 2 1 4 5 6 Brian White - Com Brian White Pobox 5 3 4 6 1 2 Charles Bryant - Demoncouk Vguide Vote Ch Chch 2 2 2 2 1 3 Charles Lindsey - Csmanacuk Chl Clw 3 4 2 5 1 6 Chris Croughton - Org Chris Keristor 4 4 2 6 3 1 Clive Feather - Net Clive Demon 3 2 1 4 6 5 Clive Martin - Demoncouk Clive Cmartin 2 4 3 5 1 6 Clive R Robertson - Orguk Cliver Clive 5 4 3 6 1 2 Dave - Demoncompanyuk Dave Community-Spirit 3 4 1 2 6 5 Dave Johnson - Com Requiem Freeuk 0 0 0 0 1 2 Dave Mason - Orguk Avgfv Sarnie 4 6 3 6 1 2 Dave Mayall - Couk David Mayall Ukonline 5 1 2 6 3 4 David Damerell - Greenendorguk Damerell Chiark 5 4 3 6 1 2 David Mahon - Couk Dmahon_Vote_Avgfv Amigo 4 1 4 4 3 2 Denis McMahon - Net {Denisrt} Pickaxe 0 3 0 0 1 2 DG - Demoncouk Dickg Dickalba 3 1 2 6 4 5 Don Aitken - Com Donaitken Freeuk 3 1 2 3 0 4 Eddie Bernard - Greatxscapenet Usenet Ebernard 0 4 1 0 3 2 Fred Barber - Demoncouk Fredb Frolix8 4 1 2 6 5 3 gizbon - Couk Gizbon Higs 2 4 1 3 6 5 Glenys Pople - Demoncouk Gkp Howfen 3 2 1 4 6 5 Iain Bowen - Alaricorguk Alaric Alaric a a a a a a James Coupe - Orguk James Zephyr 0 0 2 0 1 3 James Farrar - Couk Londonstatto Yahoo 1 4 2 3 5 6 JBM - Edu Jpb8 Duke 3 1 2 4 5 6 Jeffrey Goldberg - Org Jeffrey Goldmark 1 4 2 3 5 6 Jezza - Freeservecouk Jezza Hotwells 6 1 2 5 3 4 Jim Riley - Com Jimrtex Pipeline 4 3 1 5 2 6 John Bean - Org News Waterfoot 3 1 2 4 5 6 John Blundell - Com Jcbnews001 Bigfoot 0 0 0 0 1 0 Jon Thomson - Warwickacuk Mawdl Csv 2 2 1 3 5 4 Jonathan Wheeler - Acuk J F Wheeler Rl 2 3 1 6 4 5 Kevin Andreoli - Couk Kevin Andreoli 3 2 1 0 0 0 kqr - Com Kqr2D2 Btopenworld 4 6 3 5 2 1 Lt Cmdr Jim - Org Jim Us-Lot 2 4 1 3 1 5 Mark Tyndall - Acuk Mrt102 York 2 4 1 5 3 6 Mike Fleming - Couk Mike Tauzero 2 1 3 0 0 0 Mike Tullett - Com Mike Tullett1 Ntlworld 4 2 3 5 1 6 Molly Mockford - Claracouk Molly Mockfords 2 2 3 2 1 6 Neil Ellwood - Couk Cne Netmatters 2 3 1 4 6 5 Neil Fernandez - Demoncouk Ncf Borve 4 2 1 3 0 0 Nigel Ashton - Demoncouk Nigel Nigelashton 0 0 1 0 2 0 Paul Carpenter - Demoncouk Paul Pcserv 1 2 3 3 4 5 Peter Munn - Demoncouk Pmunnsub Pearce-Neptune 5 4 2 6 3 1 Peter Robinson - Net Pmrobinson Gmx 4 2 3 5 1 6 Peter Smyth - Net Psmyth Ukf 0 0 2 0 1 0 Phil Todd - 001 Boing 127 0 0 1 2 0 3 Philip Powell - Orguk Philip Blencathra 5 3 4 6 1 2 Richard Clayton - Com Richard Highwayman 3 2 1 6 4 5 Richard Kennaway - Ueaacuk Jrk Sys 4 3 6 5 1 2 Richard Kettlewell - Greenendorguk Richard+Avgfv Sfere a a a a a a Ron Morgan - Org Mysteron Ccl4 0 0 0 0 1 0 Roy Stilling - Orguk Rpjs Kalevala 0 0 0 0 1 0 Spider - Ca Dipseydoodle Shaw 0 0 0 0 1 2 Steve Firth - Couk Abuse Malloc 2 3 1 4 6 5 the kat - Com Katnews Ntlworld 0 0 0 0 1 2 Thomas Lee - Couk Tfl Psp 4 1 2 3 6 5 Tim Forcer - Sotonacuk Tmf Ecs 0 0 1 0 2 0 Tony Towers - Tele2Couk Tony Cats - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- AMENDMENT 4: REMOVAL OF PHRASE "(IF AVAILABLE)", VIEWED AS CONFUSING AND REDUNDANT 32 votes in favour 18 votes against 16 abstentions Amendment 4 passes because at least 12 more votes were cast in favour than against. For voter details, see column (4) in the Full Voter Listing below. =========================================================================== FULL VOTER LISTING (y = yes, n = no, a = abstain, 1-6 = preference order, 0 = no preference) Amendments (1) (2) (3) (4) A B C D P Q R S T U 4 3 1 2 n 0 0 0 0 1 2 n {R} - Org {R} Semolina 4 1 2 3 n 0 0 1 0 0 0 a Alan Fleming - Org Af Etrigan 3 2 1 4 n a a a a a a a Alan LeHun - Claracouk Ukvote Lehun a a a a y 5 2 1 3 4 4 y Andrew Hartley - Freeservecouk News Eastupham 4 1 2 3 n 6 6 6 6 1 2 n Anthony R Gold - Com Tgold Panix 0 0 0 1 a 0 0 0 0 1 0 a Barry Dorrans - Org Barryd Idunno 4 3 1 2 n a a a a a a a Bill Muskett - Orguk Billn Musketts 3 2 1 4 n 2 3 1 4 5 6 y Brett Paul Dunbar - Demoncouk Brett Dimetrodon 4 1 2 3 y 3 2 1 4 5 6 y Brian White - Com Brian White Pobox 3 4 1 2 n 5 3 4 6 1 2 n Charles Bryant - Demoncouk Vguide Vote Ch Chch 2 3 1 4 n 2 2 2 2 1 3 y Charles Lindsey - Csmanacuk Chl Clw 3 4 1 2 n 3 4 2 5 1 6 y Chris Croughton - Org Chris Keristor 1 1 3 2 y 4 4 2 6 3 1 n Clive Feather - Net Clive Demon 2 1 4 3 n 3 2 1 4 6 5 a Clive Martin - Demoncouk Clive Cmartin 3 2 1 4 n 2 4 3 5 1 6 y Clive R Robertson - Orguk Cliver Clive 4 3 1 2 n 5 4 3 6 1 2 n Dave - Demoncompanyuk Dave Community-Spirit 1 4 2 3 a 3 4 1 2 6 5 n Dave Johnson - Com Requiem Freeuk 4 3 1 2 y 0 0 0 0 1 2 y Dave Mason - Orguk Avgfv Sarnie 4 3 1 2 n 4 6 3 6 1 2 n Dave Mayall - Couk David Mayall Ukonline 3 1 2 4 n 5 1 2 6 3 4 a David Damerell - Greenendorguk Damerell Chiark 4 3 1 2 n 5 4 3 6 1 2 n David Mahon - Couk Dmahon_Vote_Avgfv Amigo 3 3 2 1 n 4 1 4 4 3 2 n Denis McMahon - Net {Denisrt} Pickaxe 0 0 1 2 n 0 3 0 0 1 2 n DG - Demoncouk Dickg Dickalba 3 3 1 2 n 3 1 2 6 4 5 n Don Aitken - Com Donaitken Freeuk a a a a y 3 1 2 3 0 4 y Eddie Bernard - Greatxscapenet Usenet Ebernard 4 3 1 2 n 0 4 1 0 3 2 a Fred Barber - Demoncouk Fredb Frolix8 4 2 1 3 a 4 1 2 6 5 3 y gizbon - Couk Gizbon Higs 3 2 1 4 n 2 4 1 3 6 5 y Glenys Pople - Demoncouk Gkp Howfen 0 0 1 2 n 3 2 1 4 6 5 y Iain Bowen - Alaricorguk Alaric Alaric 2 2 1 1 n a a a a a a y James Coupe - Orguk James Zephyr 2 1 0 3 n 0 0 2 0 1 3 y James Farrar - Couk Londonstatto Yahoo 1 2 3 4 y 1 4 2 3 5 6 y JBM - Edu Jpb8 Duke 4 3 1 1 n 3 1 2 4 5 6 a Jeffrey Goldberg - Org Jeffrey Goldmark 1 2 3 4 y 1 4 2 3 5 6 y Jezza - Freeservecouk Jezza Hotwells 4 1 2 3 y 6 1 2 5 3 4 y Jim Riley - Com Jimrtex Pipeline 3 2 1 4 n 4 3 1 5 2 6 y John Bean - Org News Waterfoot 2 1 3 4 y 3 1 2 4 5 6 y John Blundell - Com Jcbnews001 Bigfoot 1 0 3 2 a 0 0 0 0 1 0 y Jon Thomson - Warwickacuk Mawdl Csv 1 3 4 2 n 2 2 1 3 5 4 y Jonathan Wheeler - Acuk J F Wheeler Rl 2 1 3 4 n 2 3 1 6 4 5 y Kevin Andreoli - Couk Kevin Andreoli 1 0 0 0 y 3 2 1 0 0 0 y kqr - Com Kqr2D2 Btopenworld 1 3 4 2 y 4 6 3 5 2 1 y Lt Cmdr Jim - Org Jim Us-Lot 2 2 1 3 a 2 4 1 3 1 5 y Mark Tyndall - Acuk Mrt102 York 3 2 1 4 n 2 4 1 5 3 6 n Mike Fleming - Couk Mike Tauzero 1 2 3 0 y 2 1 3 0 0 0 y Mike Tullett - Com Mike Tullett1 Ntlworld 4 3 1 2 n 4 2 3 5 1 6 a Molly Mockford - Claracouk Molly Mockfords 1 2 1 3 n 2 2 3 2 1 6 y Neil Ellwood - Couk Cne Netmatters 1 2 3 4 y 2 3 1 4 6 5 y Neil Fernandez - Demoncouk Ncf Borve 0 3 1 2 a 4 2 1 3 0 0 a Nigel Ashton - Demoncouk Nigel Nigelashton 0 0 1 2 n 0 0 1 0 2 0 a Paul Carpenter - Demoncouk Paul Pcserv 1 1 1 2 a 1 2 3 3 4 5 a Peter Munn - Demoncouk Pmunnsub Pearce-Neptune 2 3 1 4 n 5 4 2 6 3 1 a Peter Robinson - Net Pmrobinson Gmx 3 2 1 4 n 4 2 3 5 1 6 n Peter Smyth - Net Psmyth Ukf 4 3 1 2 y 0 0 2 0 1 0 n Phil Todd - 001 Boing 127 4 3 1 2 a 0 0 1 2 0 3 y Philip Powell - Orguk Philip Blencathra 3 3 1 2 n 5 3 4 6 1 2 n Richard Clayton - Com Richard Highwayman 4 3 1 2 a 3 2 1 6 4 5 y Richard Kennaway - Ueaacuk Jrk Sys 3 3 1 2 n 4 3 6 5 1 2 n Richard Kettlewell - Greenendorguk Richard+Avgfv Sfere 0 0 1 0 a a a a a a a a Ron Morgan - Org Mysteron Ccl4 0 0 1 0 n 0 0 0 0 1 0 n Roy Stilling - Orguk Rpjs Kalevala a a a a y 0 0 0 0 1 0 a Spider - Ca Dipseydoodle Shaw 1 2 3 4 y 0 0 0 0 1 2 a Steve Firth - Couk Abuse Malloc 1 2 4 3 y 2 3 1 4 6 5 y the kat - Com Katnews Ntlworld 4 3 1 2 n 0 0 0 0 1 2 n Thomas Lee - Couk Tfl Psp 2 1 4 3 y 4 1 2 3 6 5 y Tim Forcer - Sotonacuk Tmf Ecs 0 0 1 0 n 0 0 1 0 2 0 y Tony Towers - Tele2Couk Tony Cats =========================================================================== PARTICULARS OF THE VOTE A total of 76 submissions were received by the voting system: 4 votes superceded by revotes 1 votetaker test 1 cancelled vote 4 disallowed votes (see votetaker's comments) 66 valid votes counted (shown above) =========================================================================== VOTETAKER'S COMMENTS: By arrangement with Control, the voting period announced in the first CFV was extended by one week but, due to an oversight, the vote end date in the ballot paper (not included in the CFV) was not updated to match. The eight affected voters, those who had requested a ballot form but had not submitted a vote by the start of the last week of the official voting period, were reminded of the correct vote end date. One voter 'stress tested' the ukvoting ballot autoresponder and, consequentially, the votetaker's mailbox with a rapid burst of fifty ballot form requests, each containing a rising, sequential identity in the From header - user001@domain, user002@domain, etc. None of the ballot requests were used for voting purposes and the voter failed to respond to a request for an explanation for this bizarre incident. To avoid undue embarrassment to the Committee, the votetaker decided not to issue a formal complaint to the abuser's connectivity provider. Four ballot papers were disallowed because they failed to respond to enquiries from the votetaker regarding their eligibility to vote: 1 2 4 3 y 3 4 1 2 6 5 y DR Greiner - Com Yahoo Southernfemme9 1 2 4 3 y 4 2 1 3 0 5 y Hilary Cresko - Com Yahoo Nofur325 1 2 0 0 y 0 2 1 0 0 0 y Kim Henville - Com Hotmail Vorfreude 1 2 0 0 y 3 2 1 4 0 0 y Luke Middleton - Edu Ku Lukez The clauses in the rubric relating to ballot form cancellations caused considerable anguish in uk.net.news.management but proved to be of no consequence for the vote. Only one person availed themselves of the opportunity to return their unused ballot form. This experiment will not be repeated. =========================================================================== RATIONALE: Amendment 1 There has recently been some discussion with regard to what standard of proof should be necessary for a vote-taker to disallow a vote that may have been cast fraudulently. A vote taker referred in his report to his use of both standards, and the UK Usenet Committee declined to state which standard it felt was best to use. To avoid future confusion, and to increase the extent to which 'justice is seen to be done' (insofar as it is held that the same standard of proof should be applied by all vote-takers, in all votes, and for all ballots received), it is proposed to make it clear in the guidelines what standard of proof *is* required. Option A stipulates a 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard. This means that a vote should only be disallowed if there is no reasonable doubt that it has been cast fraudulently. In other words, if there exists reasonable doubt, then the voter should be given the benefit of that doubt. This is sometimes described as something similar to a 70% confidence level. Option B stipulates a 'balance of probabilities' standard. This means that for a vote to be disallowed, it must be proven at a 50% confidence level that it was cast fraudulently. In other words, it must be more likely to have been cast fraudulently than legitimately. Although these are the two best known standards of proof, they are not the only ones in use. In order not to complicate matters unduly, I propose that those who wish to stipulate a standard of proof different from the two standards mentioned above should consider voting for the 'Re-open Discussion' option. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 2 There has also been some discussion about whether the way that someone has voted, either on its own account, or in comparison with the way that one or more other people have voted, should ever be considered as evidence (however slight, and regardless of the weight of any other evidence) indicating that they have voted fraudulently, or for that matter that they have voted legitimately. It is proposed that a sentence be added to the guidelines stipulating that the way someone has voted should never be considered as such evidence. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 3 Correct the 'he' in the voting guidelines (at ) to 'he or she'. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 4 Since voters must include their names when they vote, the current statement in the guidelines that the vote taker "shall include the E- mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters" is confusing. It is proposed that the words "(if available)" should be removed. =========================================================================== PROPOSAL: All amendments are to the document "VOTING PROCEDURES WITHIN THE UK HIERARCHY" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 1: STANDARD OF PROOF REQUIRED FOR A VOTE TO BE DISALLOWED Option A Section 1 of the 'Result' section of the guidelines states: "1. At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker shall post the result to uk.net.news.announce, and to all the other groups or mailing lists that the original CFV was posted to. He shall include the E-mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters, together with which way each one voted, so that the results can be verified." Add a sentence as follows: "If there are any votes that the vote taker believes have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have been cast fraudulently, he or she shall disallow those votes, stating the reasons for doing so." Option B Section 1 of the 'Result' section of the guidelines states: "1. At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker shall post the result to uk.net.news.announce, and to all the other groups or mailing lists that the original CFV was posted to. He shall include the E-mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters, together with which way each one voted, so that the results can be verified." Add a sentence as follows: "If there are any votes that the vote taker believes have been proven on the balance of probabilities to have been cast fraudulently, he or she shall disallow those votes, stating the reasons for doing so." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 2: HOW A VOTER HAS VOTED NOT TO HAVE ANY INFLUENCE OVER WHETHER THEIR VOTE IS ALLOWED OR DISALLOWED Section 1 of the 'Result' section of the guidelines states: "1. At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker shall post the result to uk.net.news.announce, and to all the other groups or mailing lists that the original CFV was posted to. He shall include the E-mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters, together with which way each one voted, so that the results can be verified." Add a sentence as follows: "The way that someone has voted, either on its own account, or in comparison with the way that one or more other people have voted, shall never be considered as evidence (however slight, and regardless of the weight of any other evidence) indicating that they have voted fraudulently, or for that matter that they have voted legitimately." - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 3: REPLACEMENT OF THE WORD 'HE' WITH A TERM APPLICABLE TO ALL VOTE-TAKERS WHETHER FEMALE OR MALE Section 1 of the 'Result' section of the guidelines states: "1. At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker shall post the result to uk.net.news.announce, and to all the other groups or mailing lists that the original CFV was posted to. He shall include the E-mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters, together with which way each one voted, so that the results can be verified." Option P: Change the "He" in the second sentence to "He or she" Option Q: Change the "He" in the second sentence to "They" Option R: Change the "He" in the second sentence to "The votetaker" Option S: Change the "He" in the second sentence to "S/He" - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment 4: REMOVAL OF PHRASE "(IF AVAILABLE)", VIEWED AS CONFUSING AND REDUNDANT Section 1 of the 'Result' section of the guidelines states: "1. At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker shall post the result to uk.net.news.announce, and to all the other groups or mailing lists that the original CFV was posted to. He shall include the E-mail addresses and the names (if available) of all the voters, together with which way each one voted, so that the results can be verified." Remove the words "(if available)". =========================================================================== BALLOT FORM (invalidated copy for reference only) Title of CFV - Amend voting guidelines (fraudulent votes, etc.) Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, Sunday 3rd November 2002. For voting questions only contact the votetaker: Jim Hill For questions about the proposed changes contact the proponent: Neil Fernandez VOTING INSTRUCTIONS: These instructions should be read in conjunction with those published in the Call For Votes (CFV). Name and Address: You must enter either your normal Usenet name or your real name so that you can be identified in the published vote results. If you do not, your vote will not be counted. Your vote acknowledgement will be sent to the address from which you requested this ballot form. If you would prefer to be identified in the results by a different address, please enter it where prompted. Proposed Amendments: There are four proposed amendments in this vote. Amendments 2 and 4 are single option and require a simple 'yes', 'no' or 'abstain' response as appropriate. The letters 'Y', 'N' or 'A' may be used if preferred. Amendments 1 and 3 have multiple options and will be counted using the Condorcet method, as follows: To vote, enter '1' against your favourite option, '2' against your second favourite option, and so on. You may rank options the same if you have no preference between them and you may leave options unmarked but are requested not to do so. Unmarked options will be assumed to be ranked lower than all marked options. Abstention To abstain on an individual amendment, enter 'A' against all the options for that amendment. By requesting this ballot paper you have expressed an interest in the vote. If you do not wish to vote, you may withdraw your interest by entering 'CANCEL' in the normal usenet name field and returning this ballot form to the voting address. Voting Address: Send your ballot paper to ukvote-server>. A normal reply should suffice but check the address carefully before sending. - ---->8--- please snip from here upwards when voting - ----------------- Start of ballot avgfv ----------------- Ballot ID: Enter your normal Usenet name between the square brackets: Name: [ ] You must complete the above for your vote to be valid ----~-~--~---~-~-~-~----~-~-~--~------~-~-~---- Optionally, enter an e-mail address between the square brackets which you wish to appear in the vote results: Address: [ ] ----~-~--~---~-~-~-~----~-~-~--~------~-~-~---- 1: STANDARD OF PROOF REQUIRED FOR A VOTE TO BE DISALLOWED Rank these options in order of preference - 1,2,3,4 or A to abstain - between the square brackets: [ ] Option A: "beyond reasonable doubt" [ ] Option B: "on the balance of probabilities" [ ] Status quo - implement none of the options [ ] Re-open discussion. 2: HOW A VOTER HAS VOTED NOT TO HAVE ANY INFLUENCE OVER WHETHER THEIR VOTE IS ALLOWED OR DISALLOWED Enter 'yes', 'no' or 'abstain' (YNA) between the square brackets: [ ] Change the guidelines so that how a person has voted is not permitted to have any influence over whether their vote is allowed or disallowed. 3. REPLACEMENT OF THE WORD 'HE' WITH A TERM APPLICABLE TO ALL VOTE-TAKERS WHETHER FEMALE OR MALE Rank these options in order of preference - 1,2,3,4,5,6 or A to abstain - between the square brackets: [ ] Option P: Change "He" to "He or she" [ ] Option Q: Change "He" to "They" [ ] Option R: Change "He" to "The votetaker" [ ] Option S: Change "He" to "S/He" [ ] Status quo - implement none of the options [ ] Re-open discussion. 4: REMOVAL OF PHRASE "(IF AVAILABLE)", VIEWED AS CONFUSING AND REDUNDANT Enter 'yes', 'no' or 'abstain' (YNA) between the square brackets: [ ] Remove the phrase "(if available)" from the guidelines. - ------------------ End of ballot avgfv ------------------ - ---->8--- please snip from here downwards when voting =========================================================================== This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on behalf of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties. The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL: The UKVoting web pages can be found at There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to uk.net.news.announce. Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control@usenet.org.uk. - -- Jim Hill UKVoting Votetaker -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPfnSjmOfGXkh8vHZAQEytAP/cbsewraNujdy7ut0R6e1VB5UG6FvcmgJ U8WPJZUUHOGh+NV8888Vmc1ZksS3FZgxt9N3YcBoGrY3tqV0x7YIDfzoa5EOAS2d dHAcFC7QRXMfrHwXlcYn9eNOIq3DPnh5up41kNN4wQgUftjbW0HHeDUl+t6DWi/O pI78gbrs3to= =gc+M -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----