Path: oaktree.co.uk!ewrotcd!feed-ewrotcd!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!join.news.uk.uu.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Brian Jones Newsgroups: uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,uk.games.roleplay Subject: REPOST: RESULT - Change to the charter of uk.games.roleplay Followup-To: uk.net.news.config Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:27:16 GMT Sender: control@clw.cs.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) Approved: Charles Lindsey acting as control Message-ID: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 943372614 mail2news:29234 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!serenity.mcc.ac.uk!nessie.mcc.ac.uk!clw.cs.man.ac.uk Lines: 647 Xref: oaktree.co.uk uk.net.news.announce:1554 uk.net.news.config:78632 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- RESULT - Change to the charter of uk.games.roleplay Summary of results: =================== PROPOSAL "A": Purpose of newsgroup Proposal PASSES by 38 votes to 5 PROPOSAL "B": The four options were: 1: Proposed by James Coupe 2: Proposed by David Damerell et al Status Quo Re-Open Discussion STAGE ONE - Options compared to Status Quo: Option 1 preferred to Status Quo by 23 votes to 18 Option 2 preferred to Status Quo by 36 votes to 8 Status Quo preferred to Re-Open Discussion by 30 votes to 10 Option 2 (the text proposed by David Damerell et al) is the only option to beat Status Quo by 12 or more votes, accordingly it is the Condorcet winner and Stage Two is not necessary. PROPOSAL "C": Advertising Proposal PASSES by 38 votes to 7 PROPOSAL "D": Binaries Proposal PASSES by 32 votes to 10 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Voting closed at 23:59:59 GMT, 24th October 1999 Proponent: David Damerell Votetaker: Brian Jones - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: uk.net.news.announce, uk.net.news.config, uk.games.roleplay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Results: The results follow below in the following order: 1) Results 2) Particulars of the Vote 3) Votetakers Comments 4) Voting and Appeal Guidelines 5) Rationale & Proposed Changes - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RESULTS: Votes were received from: A. F. Simpson afs7~~le~ac~uk A.J.Clark ajc4~~soton~ac~uk Aaron Fuller fulleraaron~~ukonline~uk~co Adam Benedict Canning siu99abc~~reading~ac~uk Adam Hattrell adamh~~operamail~moc Andy Leighton andyl~~azaal.dircon~uk~co Andy Mabbett andy~~pigsonthewing~demon~uk~co Brendan Murphy bmm~~brendanmurphy~demon~uk~co Chris Haywood 113026.3515~~compuserve~moc Chris Raistrick c.raistrick~~freeuk~ten D. Stevens dstevens~~cableinet~uk~co David Damerell damerell~~chiark.greenend~gro~uk Eddie Cochrane eddiec~~cobrabay.freeserve~uk~co Eugene Eugene.Mann~~ukgateway~ten G T Kingston tkingston~~argonet~uk~co Giles Williams giles.cfv2~~otranto~demon~uk~co Guy Robinson Guy_Robinson~~bigfoot~moc Henry Penninkilampi spamfree~~metropolis~ten~au Ian Miller ism_4322~~bifroest~demon~uk~co J M Kemp jas~~jmkemp~demon~uk~co John Dallman jgd~~cix~uk~co John Scott j.f.scott~~brighton~ac~uk Jonathan David Price lw99jdp~~brunel~ac~uk Lucy Ketcher jhs9lrk~~leeds~ac~uk Marcus L. Rowland mrowland~~ffutures~demon~uk~co Mark Tyndall mrt102~~york~ac~uk Matthew Hambley snowyowl~~therealm.freeserve~uk~co Matthew Vernon matthew~~debian~ro Michael Lush mlush~~hgmp.mrc~ac~uk Mr. Tines tines~~ravnaandtines~moc Nick Eden nick~~pheasnt~demon~uk~co Paul Leake P.J.Leake~~durham~ac~uk Pete Lindsay pete~~louisxiv~demon~uk~co Phil Masters phil~~philm~demon~uk~co Raven Raven~~arpeggio~demon~uk~co Rhodri James rhodri~~wildebst~demon~uk~co Rob Harper stateofmind~~breathemail~ten Roger Burton West roger~~firedrake~gro Roger Vincent rogerv~~threex~uk~co Sheila Thomas malwen~~granta~demon~uk~co simon gray simon~~star-one~gro~uk Steve Turnbull publisher~~visions-mag~moc Steve Wright steve~~wrightnet~demon~uk~co Thomas Lee tfl~~psp~uk~co Tim Ellis tim~~timellis~demon~uk~co Timothy Partridge timpart~~perdix~demon~uk~co tobias erle vote-uk~~kholdan~snafu~de Voting A B1 B2 SQ ROD C D A. F. Simpson yes 3 1 2 4 yes yes A.J.Clark yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Aaron Fuller 2 1 4 3 yes yes Adam Benedict Canning no 4 3 1 2 no no Adam Hattrell yes 2 1 3 4 yes no Andy Leighton yes 2 1 4 3 yes no Andy Mabbett abstain abstain abstain Brendan Murphy yes 1 2 yes yes Chris Haywood yes 1 2 3 4 yes no Chris Raistrick yes 3 1 4 2 yes yes D. Stevens yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes David Damerell yes 2 1 3 4 yes abstain Eddie Cochrane yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Eugene yes 3 3 2 1 yes abstain G T Kingston yes 3 1 2 4 yes yes Giles Williams yes 1 yes yes Guy Robinson no 1 no no Henry Penninkilampi yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Ian Miller yes 4 1 3 2 yes yes J M Kemp yes 4 1 2 3 yes yes John Dallman yes 1 2 yes yes John Scott yes 4 1 2 3 yes yes Jonathan David Price yes 2 1 yes yes Lucy Ketcher yes 2 1 3 3 yes yes Marcus L. Rowland yes 3 1 2 4 yes abstain Mark Tyndall yes 1 1 yes yes Matthew Hambley yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Matthew Vernon yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Michael Lush no 4 4 1 4 yes no Mr. Tines yes 3 1 2 4 yes yes Nick Eden no 1 no no Paul Leake yes 3 2 4 1 yes yes Pete Lindsay no 4 3 1 2 no no Phil Masters yes 4 1 2 3 yes yes Raven yes 1 4 2 3 no no Rhodri James yes 2 1 3 yes yes Rob Harper yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Roger Burton West yes 4 1 2 3 yes yes Roger Vincent yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Sheila Thomas yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes simon gray abstain abstain abstain Steve Turnbull yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Steve Wright yes 2 1 3 4 yes yes Thomas Lee abstain 1 1 1 1 no no Tim Ellis yes 1 2 yes yes Timothy Partridge yes 2 1 4 3 yes yes tobias erle yes 4 3 1 2 no yes Proposal "A" - Purpose of Group YES = 38 NO = 5 ABSTAIN = 4 YES beat NO by a majority of 33 votes, this is more than the +12 majority required to beat the Status Quo. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES. A. F. Simpson yes A.J.Clark yes Adam Hattrell yes Andy Leighton yes Brendan Murphy yes Chris Haywood yes Chris Raistrick yes D. Stevens yes David Damerell yes Eddie Cochrane yes Eugene yes G T Kingston yes Giles Williams yes Henry Penninkilampi yes Ian Miller yes J M Kemp yes John Dallman yes John Scott yes Jonathan David Price yes Lucy Ketcher yes Marcus L. Rowland yes Mark Tyndall yes Matthew Hambley yes Matthew Vernon yes Mr. Tines yes Paul Leake yes Phil Masters yes Raven yes Rhodri James yes Rob Harper yes Roger Burton West yes Roger Vincent yes Sheila Thomas yes Steve Turnbull yes Steve Wright yes Tim Ellis yes Timothy Partridge yes tobias erle yes Adam Benedict Canning no Guy Robinson no Michael Lush no Nick Eden no Pete Lindsay no Aaron Fuller abstain Andy Mabbett abstain simon gray abstain Thomas Lee abstain - ------------------------------ Proposal "B" RAW PREFERENCES GRID 1 2 ROD SQ 1) Proposed by James Coupe: [n/a] [ 2] [ 26] [ 24] 2) Proposed by David Damerell et al: [ 38] [n/a] [ 36] [ 37] Re-Open Discussion: [ 14] [ 6] [n/a] [ 10] Status Quo: [ 18] [ 8] [ 31] [n/a] In this grid, each number represents the number of votes which were cast that preferred the option named in the number's row to the option appropriate to the number's column. For instance, 2 votes preferred option one (proposed by James Coupe) to option two (proposed by David Damerell et al) while 14 votes preferred reopening the discussion to option one (proposed by James Coupe). However, as only one of the options beat Status Quo by twelve or more preferences, it is declared the Condorcet winner and no further count is necessary. Preferences B1 B2 SQ ROD A. F. Simpson 3 1 2 4 A.J.Clark 2 1 3 4 Aaron Fuller 2 1 4 3 Adam Benedict Canning 4 3 1 2 Adam Hattrell 2 1 3 4 Andy Leighton 2 1 4 3 Andy Mabbett Brendan Murphy 1 2 Chris Haywood 1 2 3 4 Chris Raistrick 3 1 4 2 D. Stevens 2 1 3 4 David Damerell 2 1 3 4 Eddie Cochrane 2 1 3 4 Eugene 3 3 2 1 G T Kingston 3 1 2 4 Giles Williams 1 Guy Robinson 1 Henry Penninkilampi 2 1 3 4 Ian Miller 4 1 3 2 J M Kemp 4 1 2 3 John Dallman 1 2 John Scott 4 1 2 3 Jonathan David Price 2 1 Lucy Ketcher 2 1 3 3 Marcus L. Rowland 3 1 2 4 Mark Tyndall 1 1 Matthew Hambley 2 1 3 4 Matthew Vernon 2 1 3 4 Michael Lush 4 4 1 4 Mr. Tines 3 1 2 4 Nick Eden 1 Paul Leake 3 2 4 1 Pete Lindsay 4 3 1 2 Phil Masters 4 1 2 3 Raven 1 4 2 3 Rhodri James 2 1 3 Rob Harper 2 1 3 4 Roger Burton West 4 1 2 3 Roger Vincent 2 1 3 4 Sheila Thomas 2 1 3 4 simon gray Steve Turnbull 2 1 3 4 Steve Wright 2 1 3 4 Thomas Lee 1 1 1 1 Tim Ellis 1 2 Timothy Partridge 2 1 4 3 tobias erle 4 3 1 2 - ------------------------------ Proposal "C" - Advertising YES = 38 NO = 7 ABSTAIN = 2 YES beat NO by a majority of 31 votes, this is more than the +12 majority required to beat the Status Quo. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES. A. F. Simpson yes A.J.Clark yes Aaron Fuller yes Adam Hattrell yes Andy Leighton yes Brendan Murphy yes Chris Haywood yes Chris Raistrick yes D. Stevens yes David Damerell yes Eddie Cochrane yes Eugene yes G T Kingston yes Giles Williams yes Henry Penninkilampi yes Ian Miller yes J M Kemp yes John Dallman yes John Scott yes Jonathan David Price yes Lucy Ketcher yes Marcus L. Rowland yes Mark Tyndall yes Matthew Hambley yes Matthew Vernon yes Michael Lush yes Mr. Tines yes Paul Leake yes Phil Masters yes Rhodri James yes Rob Harper yes Roger Burton West yes Roger Vincent yes Sheila Thomas yes Steve Turnbull yes Steve Wright yes Tim Ellis yes Timothy Partridge yes Adam Benedict Canning no Guy Robinson no Nick Eden no Pete Lindsay no Raven no Thomas Lee no tobias erle no Andy Mabbett abstain simon gray abstain - ------------------------------ Proposal "D" - Binaries YES = 32 NO = 10 ABSTAIN = 5 YES beat NO by a majority of 22 votes, this is more than the +12 majority required to beat the Status Quo. Accordingly, the proposal PASSES. A. F. Simpson yes A.J.Clark yes Aaron Fuller yes Brendan Murphy yes Chris Raistrick yes D. Stevens yes Eddie Cochrane yes G T Kingston yes Giles Williams yes Henry Penninkilampi yes Ian Miller yes J M Kemp yes John Dallman yes John Scott yes Jonathan David Price yes Lucy Ketcher yes Mark Tyndall yes Matthew Hambley yes Matthew Vernon yes Mr. Tines yes Paul Leake yes Phil Masters yes Rhodri James yes Rob Harper yes Roger Burton West yes Roger Vincent yes Sheila Thomas yes Steve Turnbull yes Steve Wright yes Tim Ellis yes Timothy Partridge yes tobias erle yes Adam Benedict Canning no Adam Hattrell no Andy Leighton no Chris Haywood no Guy Robinson no Michael Lush no Nick Eden no Pete Lindsay no Raven no Thomas Lee no Andy Mabbett abstain David Damerell abstain Eugene abstain Marcus L. Rowland abstain simon gray abstain - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Votetakers Comments: This was the first vote I have counted using the Condorcet system, having failed to notice the multiple choice options on the second part of the proposals! It took me some time to sort through the result and even then needed help from other votetakers, particularly Barry Salter. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This vote was conducted by a neutral third party member of UKVoting. UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count votes on behalf of the uk.* hierarchy and other 3rd parties. The rules under which votes for the uk.* hierarchy are taken are posted regularly to uk.net.news.announce or can be found at the following URL: The UKVoting web pages can be found at There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted to uk.net.news.announce. Allegations of irregularity should be sent to control@usenet.org.uk. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RATIONALE: The creation of uk.adverts.games.roleplay means that uk.games.roleplay now has somewhere where advertising is not "frowned upon". As expressed during the RFD for that group, the charter of this group is being updated to reflect that creation, moving those topics which are on-topic for that group away from this group, for the most part, but also clarifying what is still perfectly fine in this group. However, during the discussion of the 2nd RFD, it came to light that other areas of the charter were also "at fault" in that they did not accurately convey the basics of the group. As a result of this, these areas are also being addressed. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION: There has been almost no discussion of the 4th RFD. When the proponent changed an effort was made to modify the 3rd RFD until it was more acceptable; this resulted in splitting the charter change into its four independent pieces to be voted on separately, as well as the insertion of a second option (written by about half a dozen people) for one section; both the existing text and the proposed new text were felt to be rather lacking. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PROPOSALS: Proposal 1 - Purpose of Group Replace the existing first paragraph: The proposed new newsgroup will be used for UK (and visitors) Role Playing addicts to meet and arrange games thoughout the UK. Also it can be used for (but not limited to) the discussions of new and old games, rules, large game meetings (i.e. GenCon). with the following: The newsgroup is for UK (and visiting) roleplaying enthusiasts to meet and arrange games thoughout the UK. Also it can be used for (but is not limited to) the discussions of new and old games, rules, large game meetings (e.g. GenCon). Proposal 2 Replace the existing second paragraph: It will be used for all types of role-playing, including (but not limited to) Live Action (i.e. Amber, V:TM), Play By Mail, Dice (ie. AD&D, Shadowrun). with one of the following: Option 1 - Proposed by James Coupe: It is used for all types of roleplaying, including (but not limited to) live action roleplaying (LARPs/LRPs e.g. Mind's Eye Theatre, Treasure Trap, The Gathering), play by mail and table- top games, both using dice based systems (e.g. AD&D, Shadowrun, Vampire: The Masquerade) and those using alternative systems (e.g. Amber, Dragonlance: 5th Age). Option 2 - Proposed by David Damerell et al The group is for discussion of all types of roleplaying games (RPGs); games where the players assume the roles of imaginary characters in a fictional world, described and controlled by another player who is often known as the gamemaster. RPGs include tabletop games such as Dungeons & Dragons, play-by- mail/email and live-action/freeform games. These games use a variety of rules (which commonly employ dice to add an element of unpredictability) to help the gamemaster decide the result of actions in the game. The group does not cover 'roleplaying' in other contexts, such as psychiatric, business training or sexual settings, or the genre of computer games known as RPGs. (The use of computers to assist the play of roleplaying games is on-topic.) Proposal 3 - Advertising Replace the existing section on advertising: Advertising Lengthy and/or off-topic posts will not be welcome. Short announcements of relevant products, services and events, inviting e-mail inquires or suggesting URL's for further information, will be allowed. with the following: * Advertising: Short one-off announcements of relevant products, services and events, inviting e-mail enquiries or suggesting URLs for further information, will be allowed. Lengthy and/or off-topic posts will not be welcome. Advertisements for clubs and social events may be repeated at fortnightly or longer intervals. No other advertising, especially offers of goods for sale, should be posted to this newsgroup; newsgroups such as uk.adverts.games.roleplay or rec.games.frp.marketplace could be used instead. Messages posted to those groups must not be cross- posted to uk.games.roleplay. It should be noted that this specifically does not prohibit people looking for groups to join, or groups looking for new players to join them, from posting to the group to find players. Proposal 4 - Binaries Replace the existing section on Binaries: Binaries Binaries should not be allowed in this newsgroup. Instead URL's pointing to binaries should be given. with the following: * Binaries: Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.), are *forbidden*, except for cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP) Binaries belong on a web or ftp site (or similar storage systems), whose URL may be posted. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW CHARTER: The newsgroup is for UK (and visiting) roleplaying enthusiasts to meet and arrange games thoughout the UK. Also it can be used for (but is not limited to) the discussions of new and old games, rules, large game meetings (e.g. GenCon). The group is for discussion of all types of roleplaying games (RPGs); games where the players assume the roles of imaginary characters in a fictional world, described and controlled by another player who is often known as the gamemaster. RPGs include tabletop games such as Dungeons & Dragons, play-by- mail/email and live-action/freeform games. These games use a variety of rules (which commonly employ dice to add an element of unpredictability) to help the gamemaster decide the result of actions in the game. The group does not cover 'roleplaying' in other contexts, such as psychiatric, business training or sexual settings, or the genre of computer games known as RPGs. (The use of computers to assist the play of roleplaying games is on-topic.) * Advertising: Short one-off announcements of relevant products, services and events, inviting e-mail enquiries or suggesting URLs for further information, will be allowed. Lengthy and/or off-topic posts will not be welcome. Advertisements for clubs and social events may be repeated at fortnightly or longer intervals. No other advertising, especially offers of goods for sale, should be posted to this newsgroup; newsgroups such as uk.adverts.games.roleplay or rec.games.frp.marketplace could be used instead. Messages posted to those groups must not be cross- posted to uk.games.roleplay. It should be noted that this specifically does not prohibit people looking for groups to join, or groups looking for new players to join them, from posting to the group to find players. * Binaries: Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.), are *forbidden*, except for cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP) Binaries belong on a web or ftp site (or similar storage systems), whose URL may be posted. END CHARTER. Newsgroups line uk.games.roleplay A UK specific newsgroup for all aspects of roleplaying -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBODls62OfGXkh8vHZAQFrnQP+JXMPTcfVE8C21RX4xImED/AgOimCqMhg xTJeh+w/2S4Bmg6tfUfZMTxc5ihErApt+2t5ldSzUtBtTCsQeryImIyzTY/ij1X+ +PEYJFndxxcqykooAtkIwkPa98ye8WQxSuG5zJfjgwf8+v4AcUEGzKIeRAizZSv8 TiCVM4LYZjA= =i9Qc -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----