19 Nov 1998: Proposed G1 limit for demon.local

From: demon@swinny.cix.co.uk
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:47:29 GMT
Subject: RESULTS - CFV for Proposed G1 limit for demon.local
Newsgroups: demon.local


Summary: Proposed G1 limit for demon.local

PROPOSAL - Maintain G1 limit for demon.local FAILS 45:29


Voting closed at 23:59:59 GMT, 31st October 1998.

Proponent: newsmaster@demon.net (Proposer - Demon Internet).
Votetaker: votequestion@swinny.cix.co.uk (Rob Felton).


demon.news, demon.local


The Results:

The results follow below, with the announcement of the experiment and 
results of the experiment beneath them for informational purposes.

PROPOSAL - Maintain G1 limit for demon.local

Number of Votes = 74 votes
Quorum for 75% Majority = 55.50 votes

YES = 45 = 60.81%
NO = 29 = 39.19%

YES beat NO by a majority of 16 votes, but this is not above the 75% 
majority needed for the limit to be maintained.


The Particulars of the Vote

Desmond Forde           Desmond8&Vdesf.demonuk??co            Y
leo                     leo8&Vlgab.demonuk??co                Y
Michael J. Dower        michael8&Varkas.demonuk??co           Y
Andrew Gierth           andrew8&Verlenstar.demonuk??co        N
Rodger                  pete8&Vglost.demonuk??co              Y
Andrew Wilkes           awilkes8&Vbenevolent.demonuk??co      Y
David J.P. Graves       davidgraves8&Vgrav.demonuk??co        Y
Tim Willets             tim8&Vwillets.demonuk??co             N
Terrance Richard Boyes  tez8&Vpierrotuk??co                   Y
Donald Oddy             donald8&Vgrove.demonuk??co            N
Christine Taylor        ct8&Vctaylor.demonuk??co              N
William Tarr (Wm)       newsmaster8&Vtarrcity.demonuk??co     N
John Vincent            victor-vector8&Vdial.pipex.com        N
Ray Proven              ray8&Vmines-a-pint.demonuk??co        Y
Alan Ford               alan8&Vwhirlnet.demonuk??co           N
Paul L. Allen           pla8&Vsktb.demonuk??co                N
Mike King               Nosmo8&Vnosmo.demonuk??co             Y
Les Turner              les8&Vwhickham.demonuk??co            N
Stuart Baldwin          stuart8&Vboxatrix.demonuk??co         N
Nancy Boston            nancyb8&Vbostons3.demonuk??co         Y
B.E.Newsam              ben8&Vmicroser.demonuk??co            Y
Pete N Bramley          pete8&Vlro-g.demonuk??co              Y
Chris Hill              chris8&Vchris-h.demonuk??co           Y
Christopher Sharp       chriss8&Vresharp.demonuk??co          N
Jesus                   jesus8&Vheavenuk??co                  N
David Manley-Reeve      DMR8&VAylesbury-Automationuk??co      Y
Neil Barker             neil8&Vnemesis.nu                     N
Peter Derek Quinton     pdq8&Vdealworld.demonuk??co           N
Graham Green            gg8&Vbeer-monster.demonuk??co         N
Tony Williams.          tonyw8&Vledelec.demonuk??co           Y
ROGER CRATE             postmaster8&Vr-m-c.demonuk??co        Y
mark horsman            mark8&Vglobaltvuk??co                 Y
Mike Fleming            mike8&Vtauzero.demonuk??co            Y
Richard Anthony CARSONS richard8&Vraccon.demonuk??co          Y
Andy Nudd               boris8&Vdaabath.demonuk??co           N
Dave Millard            dave8&Vfocus3.demonuk??co             Y
Phil.                   phil8&Vphilscom.demonuk??co           Y
Vivianne Cheshire       Vivianne8&Vvanillapod.demonuk??co     Y
Paul Hitchen            paulh8&Vnevertime.demonuk??co         Y
Tom Bird                tombird8&Vdbqa.demonuk??co            Y
John Bifield            john.bifield8&Vdial.pipex.com         N
Tim Hawkins             tim8&Vmaladjusted.demonuk??co         Y
Will Watkins            will8&Vmankymole.demonuk??co          N
Barry Salter            barrykas8&Vsalterg.demonuk??co        Y
obscurity               obscurity8&Vobscure?gro               Y
Dominic Ramsey          dom8&Vdynamo.demonuk??co              N
Neil Tungate            neil8&Vskipper.demonuk??co            N
Stuart Millington       phupp8&Vwormhole.demonuk??co          Y
Paul Womar              Vote8&Vpwomar.demonuk??co             Y
Piers C Structures      Piers8&Vbroke.demonuk??co             N
Georgina Allen          Georgina8&Vakra.demonuk??co           Y
John Hall               john8&Vjhall.demonuk??co              Y
Pat McConnell           pat8&Vcrowwood.demonuk??co            N
Robert HULL             Robert8&Vthehulls.demonuk??co         N
Rob Allen               rob8&Vfclcom.demonuk??co              Y
Simon Robinson          simon8&Vsgvaults.demonuk??co          N
John Kaye               john8&Vjohnkaye.demonuk??co           Y
Duncan Munro            duncan8&Vmuffy.demonuk??co            Y
Brian Jones             bajones8&Vworcester.demonuk??co       Y
Ken Hughes              ken8&Vreporters.demonuk??co           Y
Mark Booth              markb8&Voxim.demonuk??co              N
Allison Gough           allison8&Vstuffie.demonuk??co         Y
Elspeth M Parris        elspeth8&Valian.demonuk??co           Y
Steve Rogers            listbox8&Vthebeast.demonuk??co        Y
Anthony D. Wright       adw8&Vsaska.demonuk??co               N
Richard Clayton         richard8&Vhappyday.demonuk??co        N
Alec Cawley             alec8&Vcawley.demonuk??co             Y
Mike Rogers             mike8&Vclakor.demonuk??co             Y
Keith Stanbury          keith8&Vilf0rd.demonuk??co            Y
Chris Benson            chrisb8&Vjesmond.demonuk??co          Y
Gary Smith              shadyron8&Vnetcomukuk??co             Y
Richard Ashton          richard8&Vcorixia.demonuk??co         N
Anthony Naggs           amn8&Vubik.demonuk??co                N
Rich Whitaker           rich.whitaker8&Vazrael1.demonuk??co   Y

Invalid Votes

No Name or Address on ballot paper (or both)

Alan Edward Milton      alan8&Vjabethnic.demonuk??co
Firth Consulting        mailer8&Vfirthcom.demonuk??co

Invalid Email Address on ballot paper

Jan Kern                news8&Vdemonuk??co

Vote disallowed - Account closed (Confirmed by Demon Internet)

Don Caister             don8&Vyakka.demonuk??co


Votetakers Notes:

Well we have reached the end of what has been quite a long road with
quite a lot of controversy along the way, and in the end the YES vote
got the result but not a high enough majority.

Demon Internet started a what was quite an experimental path and 
courageous path of allowing their customers to have a say in what
service the company gives. Unfortunately it seems that experiment has
really come back to bit them with most people preferring to pick on
the bad points of the vote, instead of appreciating Demon giving them
the opportunity to have a say in their business.

In my opinion I think the decision by Demon to only allow one vote per

dial-up account was a wrong decision (but this was not something I
could say during the vote period), and I suspect that the decision did
not really have any effect to stop voting fraud, and in the end just
damaged Demon.

To help balance the issue I made a ruling to only allow one vote per
any dial-up account for any ISP - but this did not seem to satisfy
even the hardest critics.

Unfortunately most discussion seemed to concentrate around attempts of

voting fraud and whether UKVoting, or in particular myself, could
detect voting fraud. I found it highly upsetting that the reputation
of UKVoting was being damaged by this vote and the wild accusations
thrown at UKVoting which I believe have no basis. And the worst thing
was that these opinions started appearing within UNNC & UNNM which was
a most undesirable situation. 

In the end UKVoting always attempts to combat voting fraud and does
take appropriate action when its detected and I believe the discussion
was pointless, and really just being used by certain people as a
bashing decision.

At the end of this unique situation for UKVoting & Demon I think my 
conclusions would be:

1) I think Demon has had its fingers burnt by what was a excellent
idea, and I suspect will seriously consider whether they do this kind
of thing ever again.

2) UKVoting will certainly be willing to run votes away from its main
role a moment as running votes for the uk.* hierarchy, but I suspect
more scrutiny of the rules will be taken next time before they are

3) The situation could have been helped if someone from Demon had
entered the discussion within demon.news on an official basis instead
of people posting on an unofficial level.


PROPOSAL (Posted August 1998)

Effective immediately for a period of one month we will enforce
a G1 limit for demon.local only for traffic into and outbound from

What this will mean:

Articles injected by customers at news.demon.co.uk cross-posted to
demon.local will not be propagated off news.demon.co.uk ; such
articles will be accepted by news.demon.co.uk - effectively they
will be only visible on that newsbase.

Articles injected outside news.demon.co.uk and cross-posted to
demon.local will not be propagated to news.demon.co.uk.

Articles injected outside or at news.demon.co.uk and posted only
to demon.local will be treated as normal.
At the end of the one-month period we will as an extraordinary
occurrence, run a single simple YES/NO vote to sustain or drop
this restriction. We will require at least a 75% majority in
favour of retaining the restriction in order to do so.

The details of the vote will be posted closer to the time.

"Meet" announcements are usually cross-posted to demon.local and
other groups ; in this instance it will be necessary for the poster
to multi-post them. Since these announcements are made on an
infrequent basis there should be no abuse issues raised by this.


This had two noticeable effects.

1) Articles injected by customers at news.demon.co.uk cross-posted to 
demon.local have not been propagated off news.demon.co.uk.

2) Articles injected outside news.demon.co.uk and cross-posted to
demon.local will not be propagated to news.demon.co.uk.

Note that articles injected, both inside and outside news.demon.co.uk,

and only posted to demon.local have been treated as normal.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party member of
UKVoting.  UKVoting is a group of independent votetakers who count
votes on CFVs in the uk hierarchy and perform counts for other 3rd 

The UKVoting web pages can be found at http://www.ukvoting.org.uk

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted
to demon.local & demon.news. This discussion should take place in

Allegations of irregularity should be sent to newsmaster@demon.net and

CCed to demon@swinny.cix.co.uk


Swinny - Rob Felton
Co-Ordinator, UKVoting (mailto:ukvoting@usenet.org.uk)

You can also see the raw article.
Back ot the UKVoting homepage